Podcast

ethan

Welcome to the social media law cast I'm your host social media attorney Ethan Wall and with me is my friend and co-host Shawn DePasquale.

Shawn

Let's get started ah Comic Books I know I know but you're like but what does this have to do with anything that we do on this show law. Well well. It does because Okay, there's a comic book called Fables. Do you know fables.

ethan

Familiar with the book I see it on the shelves all the time. It's done by Dc was done by the label that used to be Vertigo which is my favorite label. But I've never read it.

Shawn

Oh First of all the first like 3 trades are phenomenal and you would love them I would say it's like ah spiritually in tune with Sandman although not Sandman but it's great. You would love it. Ah, the the short version pitch is basically it is about um, various fairy tale or folklore characters. So like the prince charming and snow white and the big bad wolf and little boy blue right? so on and so forth ah they refer to themselves as fables. Ah, they have started a clandestine community in New York City a few centuries ago known as fabletown after their homelands were conquered by this mysterious bad guy who they call the adversary and so when the first trade sort of like it introduces some of this stuff. But. But what? what was really cool about it is the first trade is actually a murder mystery because like it takes place in New York city and modern days. So someone has been murdered and you meet this detective you come to find out the detective bigby is actually the big bad wolf in sort of human form. Um, and he is investigating the death of Rose Red who is a little red riding his sister and who has been murdered and so the first 12 issues were cool because it was kind of like this marri sort of book where he's investigating this death and you're learning. Oh how to how do all of our.

Shawn

Classic fables live in the modern world and and what are their sort of covers because they keep it very quiet and he was a great series Very cool. Yeah.

ethan

I Was gonna say sounds amazing and we had a podcast that you and I tried to get up and running called comics with friends where that would be super relevant. But but why why are we talking about it on this podcast other than once I'm done here I'm gonna go check it out.

Shawn

Okay, okay, so the reason we're talking about it is because Bill Willingham created this series. Okay Bill and Willingham's comic book guys writer um, now he created the series for vertigo. As you mentioned now. Vertigo is Dc comics creator owned label. Okay, which is where I think some of what I'm going to to get into sort of some of the issues come up but but the idea was always. Vertigo has this Dc comics has this imprint where they're able to do more edgy sort of adult things and as such those those series are creator owned I e 1 person kind of. Shepherds these series so garthhennes did preacher and sought through to its conclusion and Warren El did Transmotropolitan and Brian Azarlllo did hundred bullets and and willing him did fables. Okay, now the problem arises where Bill Willingham has announced on September fifteenth that he has fed up with Dc. He's no longer happy with them. They're not working well together. He doesn't think they're honoring his contracts properly. He thinks they have I mean he flat out accuses them of violating.

Shawn

His contracts. Um, so he released a press release on his own not in conjunction with DC the subject of the press release was fables enters the public domain right? So public the press release says.

ethan

Him.

Shawn

As of now fifteenth of September Twenty Twenty three the book property called fables including all related fable spinoffs and characters is now in the public domain. What was once wholly owned by Bill Willingham is now owned by everyone for all time it's done and as most experts would tell you once done it can't be undone. Takebacks are neither contemplated nor possible.

ethan

Okay, and just by way of background for people listening that aren't familiar with copyright law basically copyrights gave creators the exclusive right? to profit off of their creative work for a particular period of time when that time period ends seventy five hundred years or whatever it is. Things then become part of the public domain and that means other people can use them and I believe a recent example might be winnie the Pooh now has like a horror movie about him because his character was once owned by who ever created him now. It's part of the public domain and people can now use it.

Shawn

Yep.

Shawn

A miln.

ethan

And so what you're saying is this comic book writer who for the last twenty years or so has written fables has now decided that his work is part of the public domain and anybody can use it.

Shawn

Yes, now if he's the holy owner of this.. He's allowed to do that right? Like if I decide anyone if I decide one of my self-published books ah is now in the public domain and I make an announcement and I say hey anyone wants to use these characters I. Fully illness, go nuts I can do that right.

ethan

Yes, conceivably if you are a sprite. So if you're the sole owner of a copyrighted work and you decide I don't want to keep it for the time period. The law allows me and I want to allow anybody to have the ability to use it I can put my work into the public domain Sure that's.

Shawn

Right? okay.

ethan

Possible is that what the situation is here.

Shawn

Well, Ah, ok, let's let's go through. Let's go in order of how things laid out. Okay, so he releases this press release couple more things to touch on in the press release before we go to.

ethan

That.

Shawn

How did Dc comics respond to all of this right.

ethan

Right? I got to imagine that they are not in agreement with this and that there's some kind of contract between DC as the publisher and him that we're going to get into.

Shawn

Sure so now he says in his press release in his. Why did I do this section. He says when I first signed my co co-creor owned a creator owned publishing contract but Dc comics. The company was run by honest men and women of integrity buth blah blah he says. Problems came up and they were solved over the last twenty years or so because there were reasonable men and women working there. He alleges that over the last few years those people have been replaced by. Corporate drones essentially who have no interest in in being fair and above the board. Um, he says at 1 time and this is his quote at 1 time. The fables properties were in good hands and now by virtue of attrition and employee replacement the f fables properties have fallen into bad hands. He says he cannot afford to Sue Dc to force them to live up to the letter and spirit of his long held agreement with them. Um, and so he's decided to take them a completely different approach and just say you know what this is for everyone now look. I don't have a copy of his contract. Um I you know he claims that Dc has you know he claims then and I mean there's a couple of things at play here. But basically he claims that they've violated his contract as well over the years.

ethan

Um, right I guess for.

Shawn

And so I don't know he never quite says they violated my contract so it's Nolan Void and this is mine and I can do what I want he he you know.

ethan

Let's assume before we dive into the legal arguments I think it's probably a safe assumption if this is a creator owned arm of Dc that he probably retained copyright ownership to the underlying work. But. By virtue of the contracts that he signed he likely gave Dc exclusive publishing rights and other monetization rights of the story for a particular period of time and I assume that he's trying to make this in the public domain. During the contractual period because of this dispute that he's got with Dc.

Shawn

I mean that's what it would seem like right I mean he he says you know like he says ah note that my contracts with Dc are still in force I did nothing to break them and I cannot unilaterally end them I still can't publish fables comics through anyone but them. And I can't authorize a fables movie through anyone but them nor can I license fables toys nor lunchboxes nor anything else and they still have to pay me for the books they publish and I'm not giving up on the money that they owe me. However, you are now 100% ah, an owner of fables. Ah, and you can do what you want with it. So well I mean that's the part that I don't stand now he says he says if I understand the law correctly and be advised that copyright law is a mess and vaguely purposely vague and murky and no two lawyers I've spoken to.

ethan

So can we make a movie for fables. But.

Shawn

Even those agree specializing in copyright and trademark law agree on anything. He says you if I understand the law correctly now have the right to make your own fables movies and cartoons and publish fables, books and manufacture. Your fble's toys and do anything you want because it is now free. So ah. I don't know anything about this law from a lawyer's standpoint but it seems to be he's talking out of both sides of his mouth right? because he's I think he's misunderstanding his contract and and and and you can set me straight on this but it seems like he thinks because he has a contract with them. He be willinglling. Him cannot do anything fables related except through Dc but because he owns the underlying content he can say hey anyone else can go do anything else anywhere else because you're not under contract with dc so go nuts is that.

ethan

Okay, right? it sounds like it's bringing up two major issues is one can a copyright owner such as Bill Willingham who has copyright ownership over the underlying work whether it's comics, a song a movie. Whatever.

Shawn

Works though.

ethan

But who has contracted rights away giving a third party some ownership of those types of copyrights and uses of those copyrights can someone just say it's in the public domain like does somebody have the right to be able to just claim it in the public domain if somebody else owns a portion of those rights. Think the second reason the second kind of discussion is does his alleged breaches of contract on Dc's and enable him to do this activity because it seems like that's what he's doing it in retaliation for so two topics. Ah. But with the first one this is probably a new and unique question. My legal gut tells me that he probably cannot do this because if someone was able to basically.

Shawn

M. Interesting.

ethan

Pull the rug out from someone else and give these rights to anyone. It would essentially nullify any of these different types of publishing agreements where there's a third party publisher who's working with the creator who has. Received and likely paid for certain types of rights and it just seems like while you initial example of if you have a self-publisher could you bring the public domain sure. But you're not also beholden to anybody you don't have a contract. We don't have this contract to review but it doesn't feel.

Shawn

Right? because because I would I the part that I'm I'm not understanding I'm sorry the part that I'm not understanding about this is he he seems to be asserting that.

ethan

Legal of what he's doing.

Shawn

Like I said ah because he's in a contract with Dc but he never signed the rights of this away. He just signed a publishing contract essentially like hey I'll write these books for you, you'll publish them. We'll make money together. He does specify that like part of his contract states that. They are to come to him to clear a lit a litany of decisions. He mentions everything from cover artists to interior artists to whether or not they can make a movie even if they decide they get an offer. He's got a they. Both. Essentially have to sign off on that he can't go without them. They can't go without him so so it seems like he's us he what? what? he thinks is that because of this he personally is locked in but what you're saying is is no, that's like a misunderstanding. He's locked the the content in basically right.

ethan

I would say so and I think that this kind of flips over to the second analysis of his breach of contract argument and let's explore that for a moment all right under the law under contract law. There is there is a legal argument that if. We entered into a contract and you materially breached the contract first or you have what we call anticipatory breach the contract you're going to tell me you're going to breach the contract. Okay I then may have a legal argument I don't have to hold up. To my end of the deal all right? and so this typically happens in cases where someone works for a company There's a non-compete or non-slicitation clause they get fired. They go to a new company. They start soliciting people. They get sued by the company for breaching the non-compete and the person says whoa. You broke the contract first by not paying me my commissions therefore I didn't have to hold up to my end of the deal by not competing with you and not soliciting to you and it's a defense to the contract. Basically you breach first. So. He's essentially saying here by not initially clearing the cover artist with me even though I ultimately agreed to it. Um, and even though you didn't timely pay me all my commissions and I found by reviewing it. You owed me commissions and you apologized.

ethan

Because you didn't these like they're not all big issues but they're like a death by a thousand cuts I'm able to not hold up my end of the deal and I can do it and I don't feel like that's a strong legal argument here because usually the breach by the other party has to be what's called a material breach meaning maybe something serious.

Shawn

Right.

ethan

Ah, the cover artist issue seems slightly immaterial. Yeah look you can argue that choosing the cover artist is really important I'm not saying that it's not but I'm saying is they ultimately said oh are bad is this guy? Okay, yes, he is okay and he agreed to it. Payment issue is a bigger one but it it seemed like it was a 1 ne-off instance and I'm not saying that Dc is great but it just doesn't seem like this is a situation where you breached first. So I'm allowed to breach I think this instead sounds like a situation where I've worked for Dc for 20 years you've replaced people. You're not treating me as fairly you're trying to slip in contractual provisions that aren't fair and we can kind of talk about that one as well and so because my normal remedy would be I need to sue you for breach of contract and he states I don't have the money to do it.

Shawn

Um, no.

ethan

So instead I'm going to hit you where it hurts by making this in the public domain so you can't monetize off of this doesn't feel like the type of situation where the law might encourage someone to come up and put a work in the public domain seems like he's saying. I Can't deal with you Contractually. So I'm going to try to hit you in your wallet where it hurts and that's why this doesn't feel like it's a valid copyright claim or valid copyright Strategy. It's more of a contract dispute and I'm going to try to hit you in a different way.

Shawn

Right.

Shawn

But but but but also does it like the idea that him just saying like hey anyone can do anything now does that actually hurt Dc's bottom line like would it really I mean I guess if. Marvel decides to go make a fables movie tomorrow. It would but like like you know if I decide to write a fables comic book and release it in a month like is that going to hurt their bottom line probably not so I see what you're saying it is diluting something that was once. Only available here and now can theoretically be available anywhere. Um, but there are things in the public domain that get that that become very successful I mean that poo ah horror movie. You mentioned right? like that they made a bunch of money off of that. But also. Disney still owns their win of the pooh and they're going to make a wined pooh movie eventually and they're going to make a bunch of money off that too. So.

ethan

Yeah I think the different me it right difference in that situation. It's it's not a and b is one of the pos just copyright lapsed over 100 years where this one's still active. Um, and so it's a slightly different situation and I just don't.

Shawn

M.

ethan

Doesn't feel like I'm sure that there's going to be other contractual provisions that likely cover this like he's not talking about because let's face it. Let's say that he didn't put this in the public domain and you made your own whole movie about fables. What would happen there.

Shawn

Um, right.

Shawn

Ship.

ethan

Would bill as the copyright owner be the one that has to sue you or is it likely Dc who's going to be coming after you and of course if Marvel did this Dc that's going to come so I'm sure that Dc has some rights to be able to enforce the copyrights that they have against third parties and I'm sure in this instance.

Shawn

Um, ah right.

ethan

If he didn't put it in the public domain they would try to enforce this against other people creating toys books and movies what they have the rights to be able to do I can't see how him that he has the ability to then say it's in the public domain therefore you don't you don't have privity of contract with Dc.

Shawn

And right.

ethan

But neither did Marvel in your situation. Neither did you in that situation. So I I I can see how it would incredibly be publicly damaging if other people started publishing the fables work or creating their own stories or doing these things ah could be. But could be detmental to Dc because really I'm not big into the movies but I kind of see like Dc's getting squashed to Marvel like when it comes to taking these characters the supermans of the world. The batmans of the world. They only't seem to be doing as well as marvel infinity universe god.

Shawn

True true.

ethan

Or the guy with the gems on his hands Thanos or whatever that Spiderman that stuff seems to be much bigger. So.

Shawn

Ironically though side track but ironically about I mean maybe now like ten years ago Abc which is owned by Disney did a series called once upon a time and guess what that show was about that show was about. Ah, bunch of fables living in a small town dealing with their own problems and mysteries now were there differences sure there was no adversary that had chased them from their lands There was different reasons why they had left their lands but ultimately and. Disney Sort Of Beat Dc to the punch and did a fables show before a fables show could exist so much so that I have seen quotes from Dc executives over the years going yeah well we got to give it some more time because they kind of did that and and that's like the the nature of.

ethan

So this.

Shawn

That's sort of the nature of this concept right? because he built his concept off of public domain characters.

ethan

Yeah, there's 2 issues here. First issue is the fables themselves like 3 little pigs I'm assuming are prints charming. Okay, these have been in the public domain for so long that anyone is able to use these characters hence Shrek using them as well.

Shawn

Yeah.

Shawn

Yes.

ethan

And I think that Dc disney bill anybody is not going to argue that you sean d pasquali don't have the rights to create a 3 little pigs story. Okay, what you don't have the right to do is copy probably the 3 little pig story as it is portrayed in this fables.

Shawn

Correct correct.

ethan

Comic and that same thing happens with copyright so a lot of people get confused about what copyrights mean people would say to me Ethan I had the idea to create a social network where people can create short little. Updates and now it's being stolen by Twitter and by x and I had the idea first and I kind of say to them look copyright doesn't protect the idea it protects the tangible expression of those ideas which is why x can have the Twitter -ish platform and meta can have the threads platform. You can't stop people from taking the i.

Shawn

Yes.

ethan

Idea of using these 3 little pigs and putting them into other stories and so that's what this kind of feels like here is that really you and I personally as friends are building a dungeon dragons game involving a story that involves characters that includes tropes like.

Shawn

Right.

ethan

A haunted mansion and ah and a wizard and animated armor and things like that. But you know we're allowed to use those things because these things are kind of in the public domain but we could not do was literally take Disney's haunted mansion. Take it room by room. And then recreate that for ourselves and so I think that's the similarity and where this kind of blends and overlaps and why you're right? people can make stories about fables but they can't make the fables stories as authored by bill and produced and published by Dc.

Shawn

Yeah.

Shawn

Right now. What is Dc's response to all of this well DC's response is not very long I can tell you that it's certainly not as long as bill's response ah to Dc's response which we'll get to in a second.

ethan

But.

Shawn

But Dc's official statement reads as follows and I quote the fables comic books and graphic novels published by Dc and the storylines characters and elements therein are owned by Dc and protected under the copyright laws of the United States and throughout the world in accordance with applicable law and are not in the public domain. Dc reserves all rights and will take such action as dc deems necessary or appropriate to protect its intellectual property rights they don't mention Bill. They don't mention honestly anything that he said they just reassert that they own.

ethan

Yeah, and they say that because they have to so if you own a copyright the Us copyright office isn't going to be beating down doors of people who are infringing off of you. It's your responsibility as the rights owners to enforce it and so think they're kind of just.

Shawn

These characters.

ethan

Stating what would be obvious and I think ultimately Bill says I don't want to sue them so I did this I think it's probably going to result in potentially them suing him even if it's through what's called a declaratory judgment which is basically asking the court to declare.

Shawn

Yeah.

ethan

Whether somebody has the right to do something or who the owner of these rights are and he's probably going to find himself in court anyway, now this doesn't mean that I'm on team dc this also doesn't mean that I don't empathize and agree with the fact that Dc has probably changed over the years

Shawn

You sure.

ethan

Were much more artist friendly in the beginning they had a big dispute with Alan Moore as um and and watchman and all of these things as as bill details and some of his self- published press releases and.

Shawn

Yeah.

Shawn

Yeah.

ethan

I have no doubt that they are trying to get as much rights as possible as great of a deal as possible and are probably acting like a giant corporate conglomerate because Dc is a giant corporate conglomerate whose you know money is made off of intellectual property.

Shawn

Um, yeah.

Shawn

Correct.

ethan

Um, So it's not like I'm saying my gosh. Let's like all rally behind the big bad Wolf D C or the big bad corporation and what I am saying is that this tactic that he's doing doesn't sound like. It works the way that he's interpreting that it works and it's probably only going to further create a wedge between him and the company moving forward which I think he's already acknowledged.

Shawn

Yeah I mean I I tend to agree in this case and I I'm the last one to 1 to side with corporate greed and I and I do think that I mean I know ah that um DC's probably.

Shawn

Abused their contracts with creators I think they've probably I think Dc probably also knows that most of the creators working for them. Can't sue them so they take liberties I think your death by a thousand cuts. Analogy is probably very apt for the way some of these contractual obligations are handled or or mishandled um and I and I'm speaking from personal experience. Ah speaking from anecdotal experience of friends that I know have worked with Dc specifically. Um, and other comic book companies ah of their ilk or even you know, ah indie publishers. This is not a new thing in this business. Um, you know the the standard sort of.

Shawn

I'm giving you the rights to something. Ah, you're going to publish it but I still am the creator but I own it agreement in comics doesn't allow for this. It just doesn't so unless twenty years ago Bill had some judge to get a better. Contract signed I would tend to think that he probably signed a similar contract that a lot of us have signed and and and to your initial point. Yeah, that contract basically says sure you created this and you own this. But while we're involved we own it. And you can't do shit without us and we can't do shit without you and it's a partnership and this is ours now until one of us breaks the contract or or we decide to go our separate ways depending on how that contract's written and normally let's be honest. It is not like oh and then in the year we'll just give you your rights back. Normally it's like we own this basically freaking forever unless we like really violate something. Um, so and I think I so I understand his frustration certainly and I wanted him to have some legal leg to stand on here. But.

ethan

Um, and.

Shawn

The more I saw responses from d the you know Dc's response and then his kind of response to their response I was like I don't know so so you know in speaking to you you sort of confirmed what I thought which is. This isn't the best legal battle this is not the strongest legal leg to stand on for for bill. Um, right.

ethan

Right now and to give now now to to shine this and ah to look at this and a slightly different perspective. Okay, the law changes because people take these unique stances at times I remember. I Actually went to school for television radio all right I want I would did television news back in high school I was on the radio in college I got kicked off the air on the radio and like pivoted to becoming a lawyer. You know the great American dream. Ah, but I remember in my mass communication law class.

Shawn

Um, sure Yeah, sure.

ethan

Um, during that undergrad I became a lawyer in part because I was really excited to read that George Carlton the Carlton the comedian had like the 7 dirty words you can't say on Tv.

Shawn

Um, yeah George Carlin yeah

ethan

And he said a bunch of bad words and this ultimately went up to the us supreme court and and helped to change the law over obscenity saying you can't stop adults from saying bad words but we could probably stop this from being disseminated on public television during daytime hours. When kids are more likely to watch this stuff but in the evenings or when other things you can't stop people from doing it. So let's not discount the fact that just because this is a new novel idea that it may not hold water and upon a challenge there might be artists rights unions who say look. Maybe this specific way that he's done. It isn't done in the best light but perhaps this does give us the opportunity to rally around artists and creators rights to help strengthen our bargaining power and position by perhaps getting some sort of federal courts or a Us supreme court. To rule that artists do retain more ownership by having some parts of the copyrights than what these these these larger industries are doing and I think today in a day and age where Ai is stealing creators work where large companies are doing it and what bill was really pissed about here. They tried to slip in a work for hire clause in his most recent run which and which they said oh we just slipp through the cracks and he's like no you tried to like sneak away my rights um creators are getting pinched more and more and more and at some point we're going to put our foot down and say enough is enough.

Shawn

Yes.

ethan

And this might be his stand whether it's the best stand I don't know but it is interesting to see if this thing does take up more legal attention How this shakes out for purposes of creators and these deals in the future.

Shawn

Yeah I mean I think that's I think that's fair, you know he ah will see what happens I mean it would be cool if you know as you said if this leads to some type of reform in the way. Ah you know, art artists are treated great. Um, I think to Bill's point he's a 67 year old man. He's not a rich man to try to fight this on his own would be sort of frivolous is kind of his point. He's like like I don't want to die fighting Dc. He's like if they want to come after me. I'll probably be dead by the time it goes to court anyway, so whatever like you know, ah you can't take you can't get blood from a stone essentially is is his response to well what if they sue you um and frankly he and correct me if I'm wrong. Has he done anything that they could sue him for I mean other than saying this making this proclamation he didn't do anything. He didn't go off and make any other things. So is it like. Is it like a libel kind of thing like what could he actually get in trouble for here.

ethan

Um, yeah I read his statements. It's hard to say that they're liable and slanderous if a they're true or b they're his opinion like calling them goons or calling like them names is really kind of his opinion. That's not super actionable if he's lying about some things that's possible that i. Didn't come prepare with an analogy until you brought it up and my best thought process might be that let's say there's an artist like Picasso and Picasso is commissioned by a museum to make a painting.

Shawn

Right? okay.

ethan

And Picasso owns the original copyright to it but he gives basically the exclusive rights to the museum to display this art and now he has a disagreement with the museum because they're working with somebody that he doesn't like and so he now says. My original work that I am the author for is now in the public domain and anybody else in the world can now take this painting and put it in their museum and put it in their homes and it feels like it's a potentially breach of contract issue.

Shawn

We.

ethan

Breach of good faith and fair dealing or the other claim that comes to mind is a weird one. It's called and um, intentional interference with an advantageous business relationship. Um, basically what he's saying is he's encouraging other people to.

Shawn

Mm.

ethan

Breach the rights that Dc has through him making this in the public domain again I don't think it's a clear legal claim here. But if anything it certainly feels like he's frustrated, but he's not really wearing the white hat and dcs if they want to take action about it. Probably going to find some legal claim here that he's doing something wrong even if he's not the one who's ultimately infringing.

Shawn

But from an optics standpoint would would they like doesn't it feel like he's such a little He's such a David and they're such a goliath that like if I was Dc I'd be like okay dude sure anyone can make fables and it's like people try to do fables shit. And it really truly does hurt my bottom line I'll just go crush them so like do I even need to worry about bill and in in engaging with Bill. Do I not drum up more public support than is necessary because right now this hasn't really escaped the comics world. Right? Or the internet. My mom doesn't know about this. This wasn't on Cnn this week you know what I mean but Dc comics sues the shit out a 67 year old guy who's like only worked for them for 20 years and made them money now I could see that getting on Cnn because now that's a a thing right.

ethan

Absolutely.

Shawn

So I wonder if just from an optic standpoint if Dc is not better off just going like okay sure bill. Whatever like you wrote your blog post you think people own it. They don't we put art out our response out saying like no and now if people try to go do stuff with fables and go well build homeie. It's okay. Dc could just be like okay well it's not and we're just gonna crush you and it doesn't matter. Go talk to bill get him to be your lawyer right? I mean right? a little bit.

ethan

It's possible right? This comes out of a situation of practically what are they going to do from a Pr from from a legal perspective. You know if this isn't a household name why we talking about this in the podcast. First of all, but um I do think that.

Shawn

Yeah.

ethan

They're going to have to make a decision at some point if he just beats his chest through these things and nothing comes as a result of it and people happen to infringe and they take whatever actions they normally going to take but don't do anything with him That's one way that this can go down.

Shawn

Men.

ethan

It is possible that Dc wants to get ahead of this so that this doesn't happen with a bunch of other creators and create some precedent and really I can't see them saying like them being an evil goliath here you know, especially if they have contracts with these people.

Shawn

Um, no.

ethan

At some point companies got to enforce their rights and I'm not saying now is the time to do it. But I'm saying that look right now you personally are in the midst of the writers strike and writers feel like they're being treated completely Unfairly and what if.

Shawn

Sure.

ethan

All of these writers or a large portion of these writers are listed as the author on a copyright application and they just release all of this into the public domain and now there's all these different fights happening from publishers across the world and so there could be this rolling stone or slippery slope type of an effect.

Shawn

M.

ethan

Again I don't say that that's going to happen. But you're seeing this now with the auto unions who are striking saying we're not going to get enough good pay if you don't give us a deal. We're going to go to the next one you know this is this could be an arrow in the quiver of other rights or creators if this doesn't.

Shawn

Yeah.

Shawn

But but to your point this this just made me think is this not all easily solvable by doing a copyright search for fables comic book and seeing who's the copyright holder and if it's in fact, Dc comics then like Bill's kind of screwed.

ethan

If this ends up getting out of hand here.

ethan

It depends like when you fill out Copper applications. You do have to put who the author is and then which may be different from who the owners are and is as you might be familiar with copyright's complicated. Let's use us just because I'm a little bit more familiar with it.

Shawn

Um.

Shawn

Ah.

ethan

An artist Taylor Swift I'm just making up Taylor Swift not saying this is her situation but she oh come on. She's great. Um, yeah, right, there goes our our massive listenership right out the door.

Shawn

Yeah, that's not even a real artist. No I'm just getting I love her I get George jeers I love her swiof these don't come after me. Ah.

ethan

Actually had somebody comment on Youtube today and they're like you you you stop saying like so much and I'm like at the time of me are they talking about Shan but I'm like whatever thanks for engaging with our content appreciate the comment like no anyways.

Shawn

I Think they're talking about you.

ethan

Yeah, see that guilty face right? there you just said it? Okay, but the ah wonderful. Um, but to like Rela the point all right.

Shawn

I Don't say like that much even in my normal. Oh I edit this So I'm just gonna edit that part out. Thank you very much. Okay, so go on. Yeah.

ethan

There's there's ah, let's say a Taylor Swift song okay there's the lyrics to the song. There's the performance to the song. There's the music of the song. There's the recording of the song. There's the distribution of it. There's the performance of it. There are many different copyrights that might be attached to a particular piece of art.

Shawn

Um.

ethan

And I think that's exactly what you're seeing here is that he is likely the artist he likely owns part of the copyright but but he is either a given up contractually some of those other aspects of copyrights to somebody else or it's a little bit confusing So I don't think it's going to be as simple as search the database.

Shawn

I say in here.

ethan

Because a lot of things can happen thereafter contractually because that's what copyright owners have the right to do. He has the right to give up his rights in exchange for getting this published getting royalties and all of these other wonderful things that really took bring this back in the beginning.

Shawn

And.

Shawn

You know by money. Sure.

ethan

Was the point of the relationship itself I need you, you need me like you and I are creating a game together. We can self-publish this thing and maybe people buy it. Maybe they don't or we can go to a game publisher and say you take the profits give us a percentage and you have the rights to do this and it could probably be.

Shawn

Yeah.

ethan

Disseminated you know larger So it's probably a similar situation here.

Shawn

Right? Yeah I would think so too. Well I thought this would be an interesting one to discuss. It's a little bit off of our beaten path. Um I I Although I do feel like I can justify it as a topic for the show a because it's law and B because. All of this happened on social media I mean like this wasn't I mean he literally tweeted this stuff out and so you know and that's another thing where it's like the ability with which social media provides creators to disseminate stuff like this in a world where you would have used to had a.

ethan

Um, yeah.

Shawn

Contact a newspaper and get them to print some kind of thing you know this man just said hey I'm doing this and then publications went hey I think this guy's doing this and you know and so it's spread you know through through the entertainment news media at least their online entertainment news media. So.

ethan

Fra.

Shawn

I thought this was an interesting one I would be curious to see what people think about this. Um, if anyone on the Dl works for Dc and wants to just accidentally send a copy of his comic of his contract to us certainly welcome to drop that into. Ethan's Dms Ethan where can they dm you that.

ethan

Yeah don't know if that's legal. So I'm just going to say if it happens to appear great. But really don't send it to me. Um, but I'd love to be able to read it and discover more and if you want to read and discover more comments that people leave on our social media about Sean saying the word like too much you could follow us by searching for the social media law firm. Also give us a follow for more social media news tips and resources for businesses creators and subscribe to this podcast so you can learn all about the next late breaking updates in this story and many others that relate to social media. And the law and Sean work and they find you and they say actually listen to it and Ethan said the word like 33 % more times and then you did so that you can sleep better at night.

Shawn

If you would like to prove to me that I am correct and I do not say said word as often as Ethan does you could find me on social media at Sean writes just on any social media really blue sky x. Instagram Facebook um, snapchat tiktok Sean writes Sean writes. Sean writes that's where you can find me I don't say the word like it's really not in my lexicon honestly, that's not like a thing that I like normally like do.

ethan

Like and subscribe bye.

Shawn

All right? We can go out on the ah bye.