Podcast

Ethan

Welcome to the social media law cast I am your host social media attorney Ethan Wall and with me is my friend and co-host Shawn Deep Esquali hey Shawn

00:23.92

Shawn

yes yes I am hello hi yes I'm here I'm I've made it ah Ethan it's almost the holiday I'm very excited I want some time off.

00:37.89

Ethan

Like you need some space for for me.

00:41.60

Shawn

No like I need to be alone from everyone isolated in a quiet place for a week to then emerge like a butterfly for burchrysalis.

00:53.80

Ethan

Um, okay.

00:57.87

Shawn

A new person in a new year

01:00.29

Ethan

Okay, all right? Well I'll see you in a week ah yeah you know, but you okay, cool, but you did get Christmas off last year and you're jewish so at hanukah is like basically done.

01:02.11

Shawn

Yeah, well we can do a closer to Christmas I really want to time it out. Yeah.

01:14.59

Shawn

It's that's true I it's true I really you're right? You're right? No all right? Thank you I appreciate it? Um, but in the meantime Ethan we've got podcasts to record so many of them starting with this one right now that we're currently in middle of recording.

01:17.16

Ethan

At this point. Yeah I'll take it under advisement cool.

01:33.40

Shawn

Why are people listening to this and what are we talking about? true.

01:34.36

Ethan

Well, they're listening for you. It's certainly not for me I've been reading the the treasure trove of comments that I've been digging through on the podcast and all I could say is they want more sean less ethan and they also want to know what the hell is happening with lukecombs. On social media and this two hundred fifty thousand dollars lawsuit that he sued a woman for.

01:56.91

Shawn

What? Okay first question very important before we move forward who the hell is Luke Combs is it should I know this name is this a person that's famous.

02:11.99

Ethan

Luke look. There is a world outside a fortnight and outside of social media and part of that world that lives out there is 2 time Cma.

02:19.71

Shawn

Go on.

02:26.41

Ethan

Entertainer of the year Lo Combs Cma is the country music awards lurs big guy bury good think of like ah he kind of looks like a wwe wwe wrestler like you know, kind of like portly big guy cheery you know country music song so he's a famous country singer and he's got a lot more.

02:28.80

Shawn

Revenge.

02:35.10

Shawn

Okay.

02:40.96

Shawn

Okay, ok tight listen it's not my bag but more power to you I look like that music is good in all forms. So okay, so country music star named Luke Combs

02:45.53

Ethan

But more followers in social media than you and I combined to type. Yeah.

02:54.43

Ethan

Um, totally yes yes.

03:00.59

Shawn

Let's call him Daddy Luke so Daddy Luke is Daddy Luke is suing who and why.

03:04.89

Ethan

Straight so all right? He sued a woman who was selling like ah, not coffee mugs but like you know, big tumblers with his face on them on Amazon.

03:16.93

Shawn

Okay.

03:22.42

Ethan

Suitor and won a judgment for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars

03:26.10

Shawn

Ah, okay, and this woman is she like one of those big Chinese Manufacturers like she's like the head of like a big Chinese manufacturer that like knocks people off and and and you know and then sells stuff like at a cheap rate because like that if so awesome. That's one for the team in my opinion you can't just like steal. People's you know faces and I p.

03:45.95

Ethan

Right? So she is not but lucomb said look as a as a trademark owner as a copyright owner as someone who profits off of his name image and likeness. He should have the exclusive right to be able to sell tumblrs with his faith on it or his licensees who he sells them to. So his lawyers do go after tons of these big companies that are making millions of dollars selling merch without his permission this moment.

04:06.57

Shawn

Right? Sure okay, well so she she's not a big company but she's like making millions of dollars right she must be some kind of like millionaire.

04:17.45

Ethan

I think she sold like 18 tumblers with this face on it which is still illegal. But.

04:22.61

Shawn

Wow. Okay, see this is what happens when you have lawyers on retainer. They need to find something to do and they're like well I guess we'll go after this lady who sold 18 tumblers with Luke Daddy Luke's face on it. So. I don't understand are people mad I would assume.

04:46.97

Ethan

Yeah, apparently people are mad so what happened is look First of all, no one is going to protect his image unless he and his lawyers do so so if you're a brand and you have a trademark and you're making um. Igloo coolers and some other company starts creating fake igloo coolers with your name on it and these counterfeit goods. The government doesn't come in and stop these people it really is up to the lukecombs and the igloos of the world to sue people who are making counterfeit goods without their permission. So it's doing that. But.

05:16.12

Shawn

Sure.

05:20.42

Ethan

What happened in this particular situation is lucomb says he woke up one morning at five a M went to go to the bathroom has probably taken a shit and this is his words. Not mine saw on his phone a news story out of Tampa about how country music star Luke Combs just sued a woman who sold a few tumblers in her basement on an Amazon account for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars and she doesn't have enough money to pay her bills and so he he realized I got to do something about this.

05:43.63

Shawn

Ah.

05:51.24

Shawn

Okay, so did he cancel ah did he kill a lawsuit. Oh no, So what is he doing.

05:53.45

Ethan

No lossuit's already over he won. There's a judgment for 250 k what were yeah well what's interesting about this lawsuit is in most.

06:04.31

Shawn

It'd be really funny if he just signed some Cds and he sent them to her like sorry my bad.

06:08.26

Ethan

Right? Like sell these to get your judgment back I'll give you permission just to sell those so in most so it's crazy about this lawsuit is in most states like Florida where we're from if you want to serve someone with a lawsuit. You've got to literally serve it on them with a process server that will find you at your house.

06:23.47

Shawn

Right.

06:27.26

Ethan

In Illinois I guess you can serve a lawsuit via email and apparently she got an email in her spam folder on her Aol email address says she never saw it so she never responded to the lawsuit. So this is a default judgment against her.

06:39.11

Shawn

Oh my god.

06:42.50

Ethan

And so she kind of like woke up one morning went through her spam folder and it's like I was sued by lukecombs and I owe him a quarter of a million dollars so I guess lucombs wet on social media. She made a video about this on Tiktok like Lukecomb sued me for 200

06:49.17

Shawn

Wow.

07:01.92

Ethan

Thousand dollars this got picked up on the news. So lucombs did a stitch of the news story with woman of the background saying like man my heart's broken about what happened with this woman I'm sick to my stomach I didn't know about this lawsuit. So I called her send her 5 or 10 grand and said we're going to find a way to work this out like.

07:26.80

Shawn

Wow! Um, Jesus I mean that's crazy. So so it's interesting to me that really no one knew this lawsuit was happening presumably not Luke. Not the lady. This was all just like without anyone's involvement. Just. Some lawyers in it and and some judge just were like all right. This is it. Let's ruin this lady's life. That's mind blowing one. The other thing that kind of maybe blows my mind a little less about number one is is there any possible way. This guy didn't know this was happening.

07:49.56

Ethan

Right.

08:02.33

Shawn

Like could you be that out of the loop or could he have that many lawsuits that his lawyers don't check with him before doing something They don't need to get his permission like like how does a retainer work can I Just like pay a lawyer a bunch of money and then they can just Like. Do whatever and they never need to talk to me about it. Mm.

08:21.77

Ethan

Of course I need to talk to you about it? Um, so okay, first thing is I haven't looked at the lawsuit itself but I don't know if it's Luke Combs suing personally or if lukecombs has licensed his name image and likeness to some sort of company that then has the ability to.

08:38.64

Shawn

Interesting.

08:39.14

Ethan

To prosecute it. So the question is did Luke Combs know I don't know I've got to say but you and me we would certainly know for suing somebody I'm sure it's possible that he's on a monthly call with his lawyers lawyers are like look we got these 10 infringers. We got this. Factory whatever we got Susan whoever is selling an Amazon Account these are the lawsuits that we're filing. You know he's supposed to be authorizing these things before they go ahead and get filed I'm sure him or his manager or his agent knew. But I don't have any personal knowledge of whether Luke comb said hey lawyers.

09:06.97

Shawn

Um, okay.

09:10.73

Shawn

Interesting.

09:15.60

Ethan

Look at sus in an Illinois selling these tumblers. You know.

09:16.77

Shawn

Right? right? so there's so okay so let's give the guy the benefit of the doubt it is highly probable that he had people working on this that he may have not been directly involved. It's as probable to your point that like yeah. Maybe there was some monthly call that was like hey found 10 more infringers were going after him you cool he was like sure whatever and and then this happened so okay, let's give the guy the benefit out and say that happened that sucks. Um, that sucks the woman. Um. Did she give any reasonable explanation for why she did this in the first place like in her video was she like oh my god I just like or was she just like yeah look I did infringe I did try to make a bunch of money selling tumblers with this guy's face on him like.

10:10.33

Ethan

Look ah, there's so many people out there selling counterfeit stuff and and that doesn't mean that it's okay and usually they say I did know that I couldn't do it or I didn't think that I was going to get caught or look at these hundred other people out there. They're doing it that I'm doing it as well.

10:14.21

Shawn

True.

10:28.10

Ethan

Ignorance is not a defense to the law and I think look whether you listen to the social media law cast on a regular basis and you learn from Shawn you can't sell tumblrs with somebody else's face on it because that's illegal whether you know it or not you know in your gut that what you're doing was wrong and I'm sure she knew what she was doing was wrong. Whether she thought she could get sued for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for 18 tumblers cause I guess there's a statutory legal minimum that says counterfeit goods have a minimum threshold under the law of this amount of money she probably didn't know that but she probably thought I'm gonna get away with it. I gonna make a little bit of money. It's gonna cost me two bucks a mug to screen this I'm gonna buy a hundred mugs I'm gonna flip this thing on Amazon or on some online store for twenty bucks a mug I'll make eighteen bucks a pop and I'll have enough money for the holidays. Um.

11:18.40

Shawn

Wild.

11:21.25

Ethan

So I don't think her legal position is really I didn't do it I think hers more of like I'm shocked that I got caught and I didn't know that there was a lawsuit and had there been a lawsuit I would have contact an attorney they would have done something about it and they would have worked out deal because she said.

11:29.58

Shawn

Sure.

11:40.74

Ethan

Pulled it offline I'm not selling it I'm sure she would have worked it out I've been like I'll never do it again. We destroy all the mugs here's all the profits that I've made times 2 I'm sorry but a quarter of $1000000 as I think where the issue came in along with the surprise.

11:43.48

Shawn

Yeah. Right? right.

11:57.50

Shawn

Yeah, that's a lot Wow So that's crazy I mean I guess good on the guy that he reached out ah publicly to say we're gonna try to figure this out and work this out. You know it's interesting that he had to use social media to.

12:14.75

Shawn

Fix a problem caused by social media like you know or at least use the internet to cause fix problem caused by the internet. That's interesting to me. Um, so I mean yeah, what? So okay I'm a.

12:16.18

Ethan

A hero.

12:31.67

Shawn

Brand right? or a business owner listening to this. Do you in your professional opinion think that there is a threshold for when this type of legal action is outweighed by the potential public backlash and maybe isn't.

12:48.65

Ethan

So yes, of course there is and so a lot of people will say look I had a video go viral. Okay or a photograph that went viral all these other people are using it I want to sue all these different people all right because look.

12:49.14

Shawn

Words it.

13:08.70

Ethan

Stuff was stolen just like lukecombs. It's unfair. They should profit off it. It's super reasonable. Ah, and now the question is how much time energy and effort. Are you going to spend filing these lawsuits against people and what's going to be does this make financial sense.

13:12.21

Shawn

Right.

13:25.72

Shawn

Her.

13:26.97

Ethan

For you and what's the backlash going to be and what do you do about it? Okay back when I was a lawyer I remember the case that I hated the absolute most and I worked on some really great cases that was super interesting and I worked on some real shit cases over 8 years the shittiest case was a lawyer that was pissed off at Directv. Because they gave him the runaround so he sued direct tv in small claims court and he's like I just want to get my day in court and just dig the needle and he's like you should be happy. You're getting paid your hourly rates being paid by a big company but direct Tv was like we want to defend this lawsuit because we want to set the standard.

14:04.85

Shawn

Right? sure.

14:05.37

Ethan

You can't just sue us that we're going to defend this thing whether it's bigger or small and they didn't really care about the public backlash here. Um this situation I think is more like what we discussed with our friend Sarah shake from the market co on a few episodes ago which is how to deal with a crisis.

14:11.30

Shawn

In.

14:23.90

Shawn

Um, yeah.

14:25.90

Ethan

Sounds like the lawyers did their job. They stopped somebody and this was probably a situation that they were like look It's small potatoes but we need to send a signal to other people. Don't do it. But once it came out that that good old boy Luke Combs so has ah a good reputation as being like a good guy. Had this come out in the news. Probably the manager was like we need to do something about it or Luke's internal thought was like oh shit I didn't realize this I need to get ahead of this before the public backlash. Starts spiraling out of control and I look like a big evil celebrity suing the little perth and I need to make good. So I'm going to use a tikt tock stitch to say I didn't know about it I'm heartbroken look what I'm doing about it where kind of at the same side. Suing people on the 1 hand for doing it and then using social media as a way to say you know I'm not the bad guy I didn't know about it and I'm going to make it right.

15:24.83

Shawn

You know it reminds me and I'll always bring this up when ah when a major celebrity sues an individual person but it reminds me of Metallica back in the Napster days. You know Metallica took a big swing. Ah, and look on a long enough timeline. Did it really affect them. I'm not sure you know they still put out music. They still do shows. Um, so ah, you know on the 1 hand like their fans are their fans I guess you know, um, but. I know it impacted a lot of their fan base at the time and I and I don't know I don't have an intricate enough knowledge of the band's numbers to know. Did they ever recover or did they take a major hit but you know going after you know Lars? Whatever his name is solve a problem in in people. Using nabster I think they went after nabster itself. Um, but realized that you know the root maybe cause was individuals and so I think as a scare tactic they started to prosecute individual people for doing this. Um. It's interesting to me that that practice seems to have gone away I would guess that it went away because it was ineffective because at the end of the day people are selfish and they're myopic and you could sue 150 people but that doesn't mean that it's going to make the guy who wants to do it.

16:56.66

Shawn

Didn't get sued stop doing it. He's just gonna be like well they got caught and I didn't you know? Whatever what are the chances. They'll get me. Um and so I think it was a terrible scare tactic tactic if that was the the intent and I can't really what else would there have been behind it. It's not like they were gonna get much money from these individual people. Um, so it's you know? Ah, but you know even in that case much like this one we see that like the the big the the goliath going after the David never ends well for the goliath. It's always a bad luck.

17:26.50

Ethan

No, it doesn't and look There's like 2 big takeaways here first is it's hard like as someone that became famous or as a brand owner one of the worst things that can happen is. Getting your stuff stolen other people profiting off it. It's not fair and to like just let it happen. Okay means other people are gonna keep doing it and it's gonna make the problem worse I got a friend of mine and Jamie Smallonee I havent talk to Jamie in 20 years went to camp monroe with Dave Kushner together I remember.

17:43.13

Shawn

Sure yeah.

17:56.73

Shawn

Camp.

17:59.75

Ethan

Jamie created a really cool product or something and he kind of became famous as I'm going to prosecute everybody because it's not fair what they're doing and that was kind of his shtick is is I need to be able to do this and for him at work because he wasn't really a goliath. He was a small guy going after these different people.

18:08.69

Shawn

Frame.

18:16.62

Shawn

Sure.

18:18.90

Ethan

But as a brand owner from a legal perspective if you don't prosecute people for selling manufacture goods and you know about it and let it happen. You can lose your trademark right? So as a business you've got to be able to balance what do I need to do legally which with how. This is going to affect me legally and practically and make the right decisions so you don't end up in the Metallica situation.

18:41.41

Shawn

You know every six months or so I get an email because I have a little Google alert set up for all of the different comic books that I wrote right? and every like ah you know I yeah I would say like six months or so I get a little alert and I go ooh someone's talking about 1 of my comics. And I go to the comic I go to the alert to see what they're saying and the alert is simply oh this comic is now available on some other illegal free comic book website and you know I'm flattered quite frankly like I think it's cool I think it's neat that someone's taken a time to upload. It.

19:14.80

Ethan

Um.

19:17.72

Shawn

I Think it's cool that more people are getting a chance to see it. You know it doesn't really bother me and and I have more to lose because I'm a independent creator certainly um, but like you know I I don't know I'm very torn as a creator and as a. Consumer I'm very torn on how I feel about pirating things. Um, you know, big corporations. How much are they really losing individual artists are different I guess.

19:44.37

Ethan

Yeah I mean think about this to play Devil's advocate here in a real way you and I on the side are building a dungeon and dragons adventure. We've spent five months I told you I was up until two thirty in the morning writing this. We're spending a lot of time we care about this a ton.

19:54.99

Shawn

Sure yeah.

20:03.36

Ethan

We're going to sell this thing in the new year all right if it sells wonderful if it doesn't we made a great game together. But really, how shitty is it going to be if this thing gets a little popular. We put this thing on the websites and we find that someone else is just making their own copies and selling it for five bucks a pop as opposed to $10

20:05.40

Shawn

Um, yeah.

20:18.37

Shawn

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:21.74

Ethan

And is undercutting us and it you know it. It is unfair and it does suck and I and I don't of course might not have a bleeding heart for the marvels and the Disneys and the big brands of the world. They're making millions. But for the startups the smaller companies the creators this this can hurt and look There's a way that this could be spun you were like hey I felt good look my comics still out there and it could be a fun pr spin of like which game is it like this is the fake game. It doesn't have you know stone on it has Timothy like you know making a fun thing out of it but it still hurts.

20:49.74

Shawn

Um, yeah, you know to to your point. Also I think the the key difference is what you just said right? I Think if we put all this effort into this game and we put it out there. Whatever it's selling. It's not selling. Whatever. If I then find out that there are free copies out there I think I'm considerably less bothered by that than if I find out that someone is selling copies because then I go hey we're and especially if we're not selling Well then I go like hey what the fuck with no by our version. What the hell that would piss me off.

21:18.95

Ethan

Um, right.

21:24.89

Shawn

Same with the the comic. My commentic you know if I found out that someone was like making a mint selling them I'd be mad because the book did not sell Well the fact that that it's out there for free I go and I don't know I did doesn't tear me up that bad I'm like I said I'm glad someone I guess is looking at it. Um, you know.

21:40.91

Ethan

Yeah I.

21:43.74

Shawn

Ah, but yes I think to your point it it. It is in the interest of us to at least be vigilant right? and then to pick or choose our battles based on on how it. Deeply it impacts us and and and what it looks like from an outside perspective and that's probably a good lesson for everybody.

22:00.20

Ethan

Yeah, I'd say yeah I say the second lesson you talked about this earlier about remember Mila Kunis how she got scooed for selling not crypto, but and at ease right.

22:08.12

Shawn

Um, ah, Nfts. Yeah.

22:13.99

Ethan

And this was probably something where her manager or lawyers said hey this is a great deal post this on social media. They're going to pay you I don't know what it was half a million dollars for this. She ended up getting fined and investigated by the scc for selling these investments and and.

22:21.30

Shawn

Yeah.

22:32.40

Ethan

Your takeaway was look this probably isn't Mila Ku is sitting there being like I'm going to violatate securities laws and make all this money. It was they listen to their lawyers and their managers and they didn't pay much attention and as a result of this they got in trouble because they're the celebrity. This is probably the exact same situation.

22:34.96

Shawn

Lin jia.

22:51.57

Shawn

Um, yeah.

22:51.95

Ethan

With Luke Combs he's focused on selling albums making people happy creating music. Of course he wants people to shut the stuff down. He probably didn't know about it. But as an influencer or creator who's listening to this podcast. Growing a larger following and starting to get brand deals and as you do that you focus more on your craft and you leave the business to other people. It's really important to stay dialed in because the people who work for you that you trust think that they have their best interest in mind but they may not think about this from a Pr perspective. They may think about it from a money perspective.

23:15.20

Shawn

Um, yeah.

23:22.42

Shawn

Yeah.

23:26.14

Ethan

A legal perspective and you are the one that's going to experience this backlash and I can tell you Luke Holmes did not want to wake up yesterday morning and make this tech talk and say that I'm sorry he would rather have not dealt with this issue at all and just.

23:36.85

Shawn

Yeah.

23:42.19

Ethan

Prepared for winning the next Cma award. So I think that's kind of the other takeaway is we trust the people that we partner with. But ultimately the buck stops with you and I think he's I don't know he um know he's taking responsibility here but he's at least doing something about it and being like I fucked up and and.

23:43.59

Shawn

Um, yeah.

23:58.15

Shawn

Sure.

24:01.50

Ethan

Um, kind of try to make right in this situation and at least he's taking that degree of responsibility and dealing with it. But that's not the pr that he wants to have especially as the holiday season comes up and he's taken money away from this woman who wants to put you know a playstation 3 under her kids' Christmas but she can't put a paycheck.

24:19.34

Shawn

Sure she can't even afford the new playstation. She's going to playstations back this poor woman. Well listen. So I think this is a good place ah to imagine a little scenario.

24:21.60

Ethan

And we yeah we go sco food for a quarter million dollars by country music singer. But.

24:37.41

Shawn

I wake up I'm Luke. Whatever whatever that guy's name is Daddy Luke I find out that my attorneys did this I'm livid right? Oh my god I look like such an asshole. Everyone hates me on the internet.

24:41.25

Ethan

Daddy Luke I think you were calling look.

24:52.86

Shawn

Why did they do this even if I gave them the okay, why did they think this was okay why I suggest this and I'm furious I run to the internet I needed a new attorney I need a social media copyright attorney bad someone that's gonna fix this problem for me and never. Let something like this happen again I need Ethan Wall even how do people find you in these dire circumstances. Thank you Thank you.

25:20.79

Ethan

Shawn I hope that that never happens to you personally. But if it did you'd search for the social media law firm on social media you listen and subscribe to the social media law cast and you would tell us you tell me Ethan. Need 2 things I need your help and I need more daddy Luke on my Spotify Radio ah so so you could be the next Cma country music star. But yeah, follow the social media law firm on social media. Check out more episodes of the podcast. Don't sue small people who just need to make a few bucks and putting your name.

25:49.62

Shawn

That's right type.

25:56.56

Ethan

Um, bug.

25:56.76

Shawn

Yeah, yeah, don't lay up. That's all good advice. Um, and that's it. That's it for the podcast I leave me I.

25:59.25

Ethan

When or can they find you and say hey for where is this new dungeons and dragons game if you guys are creating that you can't use dungeon and dragons. Where's this 5 v compatible game. Yeah.

26:12.25

Shawn

It's making me so uncomfortable. All this attention. Ah, you can find me online at seanrights on Twitter or on Instagram ah, when the book comes out as there's more information I will post about it. There. Um, and also. Ethanal.com ah, you can find more information about the book and all of Ethan's projects and all the stuff that we work on there as well. So that's it for this week Ethan I will see you next week and then I'm taking my week off and I want no funny business. Okay, all right.

26:40.59

Ethan

Deal State it.

26:44.34

Shawn

Bye buddy.