Podcast

Ethan

Welcome to the social media lawcast. I am your host social media attorney Ethan Wall and with me is my friend and co-host Shawn Depasquale.

Shawn

Hello buddy. How are you good I've been experiencing all all sorts of crazy backlash online for some pretty inflammatory things I wrote about.

Ethan

Yeah, yeah, and you're you're not the only one I think on the podcast not not to not to not make light of your situation but we've ah.

Shawn

Disneyland and I'm really stressed out about it and I don't know how to fix it.

Shawn

No make light of it. It's fine. That's what friends are for.

Ethan

Yeah, we've talked about a lot of backlash lately on the podcast whether it is personal backlash from influencers or creators like Ashton Kutcher who said things ah positively about Danny Matherson and then yep.

Shawn

Masterson. Yeah.

Ethan

That which was which was terrible. He had all this negative pr he's now off the board of directors of his own nonprofit and then even we had an episode recently about pa and the brand who made the one chip challenge and how someone died after eating their spicy chips. They didn't handle it well and all of their products are now pulled from every single shelf in every store across America so if it makes you feel any better. You're not alone when it comes to backlash.

Shawn

No I mean listen I just I just said some things about some of the new rides at Disneyland it's not like I defended a convicted rapist. So I'm in a way better place than Ashton Kutcher so I like I'll take solace in that but it does bring up an interesting question of what do you do in these situations. Is there any legal protections that I have or that anyone has or like what do you do right? I've assumed that because you're an attorney of social media. You have all the answers and you're the only person I have to discuss this with.

Ethan

Yeah I know yeah.

Ethan

Right? And when you text me about this and I said hey I don't have the answers I didn't want to leave you high and dry because I brought in what I believe is one of my go to brand marketing experts I can't wait to introduce you to a longtime friend an expert in the subject matter and that. Sarah Shak the founder of the market co a boutique branding and public relations and marketing collective Sarah Guides emerging and establishing brands just like you shohan to international growth through transformative ideas powerful experiences and an audience first approach.

Shawn

Yeah, that's mean.

Ethan

Sarah's expertise stretches across strategic communications, creative directions and under the big umbrella that I would call brand marketing I've worked with Sarah personally over the years professionally over the years I've referred clients both startups and giant established brands with 10000000 youtube followers and she has been able to guide them in their brand direction time and time and again I know that she's going to have the answers to you. So Sarah welcome to the social media law cast.

Sara

Thank you guys for having me I'm dying to know what you said about Disneyland you guys totally buried the lead on this one I didn't know we already had something to solve here.

Shawn

You We don't have to get into it. It's not. It's it's it's It's not important isn't it elicit. It's it's It's not important suffice to say ah you deal with this stuff a lot right? but blowback and and crisis right.

Ethan

Ah.

Ethan

You should get.

Shawn

They call it crisis pr is a term that I heard one time I don't know if it's a real term is it tight. Okay so crisis Pr right? Ah brand and influencer a celebrity whomever right? says something does something gets everybody mad at them.

Sara

That's real. Um.

Shawn

Typically online I feel like right like I feel like when I was a kid and things were like newspapers and magazines there wasn't a ton of personality crises that even happened like.

Ethan

But.

Sara

Um, always online.

Shawn

You'd get a scandal right? Oh guys on drugs and they they they got him in the tabloids running around the street or something but this this you know the whole internet gets mad at you because you said or did something This is new right.

Sara

Yeah, absolutely I mean I think that there's There's so much access to information but it also opens up so many more opportunities for people for brands for companies to put their foot in their mouth and make a mistake.

Shawn

Ah.

Shawn

Um, yeah.

Sara

You know and I think the interesting part about crisis communications because I know one of our kind of questions today is like what can we do to prevent this? Well unfortunately you don't really know you're in a crisis until you're in 1 right? So so much of this planning comes on the fly and that's why. You know, depending on who you are or what kind of company you are. That's why it's really important to have a professional either pr company or marketing consultant that they have to kind of know what to do in that moment. There's no playbook for something you know we've gotten calls. We've had dead bodies found on properties. We've had.

Shawn

Home.

Sara

Bugs and food. We've had all kinds of stuff anything you can imagine and there's no canned response for those things you you have to kind of take it 1 by 1

Shawn

I mean I was going to say what's one of the worst things you've had to deal with but I would assume it's a dead body I'd assume it's a corpse.

Sara

The debt body was an interesting one to wake up to you know I think when you you know when you are in the marketing or Pr world and and people say like no two days are alike like you're not assuming that one day you're going to wake up with.

Shawn

Yeah, yeah.

Sara

17 text messages from your client saying please call me. We have an emergency you know? Um, but I do have a quote.

Shawn

Weirdly enough Ashton Kutcher was once in trouble for his proximity to a corpse that was his girlfriend who had been murdered by a serial killer moments before he showed up to her house to like pick her up from a date. And so weirdly I'm sure he was also on the phone with his pr person before he probably even called the police to go I don't know what to do I am here and she is dead I did not do this? Yeah so I guess it's a common thing man.

Ethan

Yeah, that emphasized you right? Whether you right? Whether you're celebrity or whether you're a brand like unfortunately these things are going to happen and usually these things at to Stara's point are outside of your control. You never plan for this to happen. You know if you're a restaurant and there's and there's bugs and food. Okay, that's.

Shawn

Now.

Sara

No.

Ethan

Awful. But it's within the realm of what might happen. But Sarah you know what's something that's kind of happened from a ah big deal that that kind of one one of the brands dealt with and how you were able to help them deal with the situation.

Shawn

Right.

Sara

Um, I think one of the worst situations that I saw I was thankfully not the publicist on that account. Um I was the creative agency side of things and the thing with um backlash right? is that people are. Pretty savvy and they know that they can they can take to social media and they can get noticed. You know like into your point we weren't always able to get noticed right? We could yell and scream and show up in a place and and throw a fit but but on social media they kind of know that that's the way. To get a brand's attention. So in 2020 we were representing a cruise line again. Not on the pr side thank god but they found themselves in a situation where cruises has halt had halted and their staff was on the boat and they were not letting their staff. Leave the boat. So what several of their crew members did was they took to social media and they started leaving comments on Miami Herald's Instagram and they were saying please help us we are trapped on this cruise ship. They won't let us off.

Shawn

Smart. Smart.

Sara

So you can imagine how tantalizing that is to an editor at the Miami Herald they're like how can we help so this blew up it ballooned into a 13 part media series which eventually turned into a lawsuit which I was just doing some.

Ethan

Ha.

Sara

Research on that they ended up settling for eight hundred and seventy five thousand dollars but this is something that because we didn't take care of it because we didn't address it because we didn't have a game immediately have a game plan and pivot it ballooned into a disaster right? like this was a this was a.

Shawn

I.

Shawn

Right.

Sara

Genuine disaster. Um, and I think that that is the mistake of some brands. It's like not addressing it. You can't just address it on social media. You actually have to fix the problem right? and so it's fixing the problem addressing it not ignoring it but then actually.

Ethan

Um.

Sara

Trying to pivot and avoid that situation in the future.

Ethan

It's interesting because it's for smaller type things ah creator, a brand post a video and and we know that people go crazy in the comments and so sometimes the advice is don't feed the trolls.

Sara

Um, when.

Ethan

Don't read the comments don't respond to everybody who's angry but when it comes to a Pr perspective. It seems like the guidance is different that you can't ignoring it. You can't ignore it and ignoring it is going to make it worse.

Shawn

Um, well doesn't that depend on I mean you know I think your your story Sarah was reminding me of I was trying to think of examples of well who who seems really prepared in this world for like catastrophe and how to like handle and then I would.

Sara

Yeah I'll go ahead.

Shawn

My brain immediately went to like okay Disney right? people get hurt on rides all the time we almost never hear about it unless it's like horrific and even then it's like a little story that pops for like a day and then it's gone and it's never discussed again. They're great at that right? however.

Sara

What.

Shawn

Then there was this past summer where the head of Disney right? Bob Ier is in the midst of negotiating with a writers strike and an actor's strike and he does this interview at a a literal what is called a billionaires retreat on this like beautiful vineyard and he. Is asked like what about all these strikes and he's like I don't know it seems like these people just want too much and it's like ah that's not something Disney was prepared to handle I'm sure's ah they didn't have that in the game plan. But then they had to quickly scramble and deal with it and interestingly enough they kind of didn't.

Ethan

Um.

Sara

Right.

Shawn

People got mad they bitched they called him a monster and eventually they just ran out of energy and you know he never addressed it Disney never addressed. It. They just forged ahead and eventually made a deal. So. It's my question to you is. Where's the where does that decision come in when do you ignore it. And when do you address? it.

Sara

I Can't think of a good use case for ignoring anything. Um I think that what what we talk about in our agency um day in and day out is everything is an opportunity and you work with a lot of hospitality clients and.

Shawn

Interesting.

Shawn

No.

Sara

You look for if you're a good hospitality brand you look for that opportunity to fix a bad situation and the reason for that is if you can overcome a bad situation with someone you've created a client for life. You've you've created a brand champion and so I think that look if somebody's just being you know.

Shawn

Yeah.

Sara

If someone's being disrespectful if someone is being ah just plain mean they're name calling they're doing yeah for me, that's a block that's a delete you know, but I think if it's just like the typical kind of feedback and sometimes negative feedback can have some virtue to it. So.

Shawn

Yeah.

Sara

The way that I see it is everything is an opportunity I don't think that anything should really ever be ignored unless it's just blatantly, you know it's defamatory. It's it's crazy. You know, expletives and things like that in that case, Yeah, in that case I think it's It's just it's a block. It's it's that kind of stuff. But.

Shawn

The right unjustified hate. Yeah, okay.

Sara

You know we have clients all the time they get a bad review or they get a bad comment. We'll just delete it. No Let's not just delete. It. Let's address it because if we address it publicly and our other followers or you know the people that are that are watching our every move see that we're addressing it with integrity. Then it helps build the brand for them. So you know again I think it's like you always have to respond what that response look like looks like can be different. It doesn't always have to be apologetic. It doesn't always you can listen I'm all for the companies that.

Shawn

No.

Sara

Make the best out of a bad situation, especially some of the ones that we see get really creative like a Wendy's or a target or some of these that have really gotten customer service down. Um, but I really do think that positive or negative. Um I think that you can always turn it.

Shawn

Again, yeah.

Sara

You know into an opportunity for the brand.

Shawn

So there used to be like companies had like customer service people right? and that was like their job right? But now it seems like it's kind of your job like it's kind of now fault to right is that like.

Sara

Um, next yeah.

Sara

Um, one hundred and six percent

Shawn

And that never occurred to me until you were kind of describing it and I was going like so did this did did the earlier you know, kind of shift to the internet that we talked about also shift things there where there's the companies are no longer internally hiring people to handle customer service. They're really kind of going out to like Pr firms and marketing firms to be like hey help us. Hand because now every customer service complaint is a potential pr incident is is right.

Sara

Totally so totally. So we we right now maintain about 40 social media accounts on different platforms and things like that and what that means is when someone takes to social media.

Shawn

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sara

the the gm at the hotel is not seen that first we're seeing that first because it's our job to monitor that so we really are that first line of defense to escalate something. Um as it comes in which is a whole nother conversation about having a social media partner that's truly invested and making sure that like these complaints aren't lagging for a couple of days. But.

Shawn

Yeah.

Sara

The reality is somebody can be sitting in a restaurant they can be sitting in a hotel something can go wrong rather than speak to their server ask for a manager ah try to try to address the situation in person they will sit at their table and go.

Shawn

Um, yeah, yeah.

Ethan

O.

Sara

I'm sitting here right now and the server is ignoring me and rather than saying it to the person because they want to avoid that confrontation so much they'll go I mean we've had it where like somebody's literally sitting in the restaurants and we're texting the Gm and the gm is having to walk to the table going. I'm happy to fix this for you if you would have just said something to me so people are so much more likely even when they are on property you know or in the moment you know, not everybody is a brick and mortar. But they're so much more likely to go to social media which is wild because that is a new thing that is not something that.

Shawn

Me home.

Shawn

That's crazy. Yeah.

Sara

Our parents did that's not something that us as older millennials would ever think about doing.

Shawn

Well, you used to have to you know if you had a complaint to escalate you would reach the you would go to the company first right in the case of like a corporate like if i. Bought something at Sears and it didn't work I'd go to the store and I'd go this sucks and if they were like we can't help you I'd go I want to talk to your manager and then I'd talk to the manager and I'd work my way up and then I'd have to I mean I remember my grandfather writing a letter to like the Ceo of a company he was mad at.

Ethan

2 Yeah.

Sara

Um, me.

Shawn

And waiting and getting him thing back from like the Ceo's secretary being like he saw this and we're sorry and we'll take care of it and here's a hundred pounds of Hershey's kisses you know as an apology like so that used to there used to be a whole process. So and and you're right now we cut out the middleman and we just go like ah at.

Sara

Um, sure.

Sara

Um.

Sara

Yeah.

Shawn

At Jetblue I'm stuck on your stupid plane and I hate you which is literally a tweet that I've made you know.

Sara

And the problem and and and we're we're in this like awful customer service vortex because it actually you actually get shit done by doing that. Yes.

Ethan

Ah.

Shawn

Yes, so.

Ethan

Yeah, like you actually get things happening so it sounds like in today's environment different from in the past you can't really count on being reactive because the damage is already going to be done. People are going to go right to the social channels and by the time it gets to your Ceo's desk damage is done and the ball is now rolling down the hill getting worse and worse and worse. So it seems like brands need to be more proactive rather than reactive in having a good brand strategy. So that people know like and trust the brand already so when these things come up.

Shawn

Yeah.

Ethan

They're they're able to get ahead of it. How do you now? advise any company whether it's a new restaurant. A cruiseline, a new airline. Someone comes to you and says look. We're just starting off our goal is to be a great big brand that's going to connect with people and be popular and I'm sure at some point things are going to go Wrong. How do we set the table so that we go through the best practices to make sure that when these situations arise in the future we're positioned as best as possible to be able to deal with them.

Shawn

And is your is your first comment to them just don't be shit because it's kind of starts there right? like just be a really good company. Be proactive ah to your customers and you'll never need me should be the speech.

Sara

Just don't be shit. Yeah me.

Ethan

But.

Shawn

I'd imagine.

Sara

Yes, um, the way that I would say don't be shit is identify your core values and make sure that your core values are communicated through your brand messaging so that people know who you are and what you stand for as a company because you know the the whole.

Shawn

Um, yeah.

Sara

Reason that people pay for Pr is to have this person that's not them right? Typically a credible third party media outlet say that place is great. This person is smart that place has value. You know so. That's the thing is the more that you build your brand and you let people know what you truly stand for as a brand and also how people can experience your brand and how your brand makes them feel as you build that kind of brand equity. Um what we see is that. You know when things do go wrong and I think you see this a lot with influencers because influencers. They're always saying the wrong thing they are always just you're like yeah just don't say that but what you see a lot in the comments is like people going like oh my god give her a break. You know she didn't mean it like that. And when you have like your people coming to your rescue. It's a lot better than you having to you know what we call eat the shit sandwich and go like hey I messed up what you should do anyway. But when you have that loyal brand following and they're following you because of who you truly are authentically right? So going back to don't be shit. Um.

Shawn

Here.

Shawn

Now.

Sara

Then they're going to come to your defense and they're going to know kind of like the real you the real brand the real company and most people are pretty forgiving. You know when it comes to a consumer I remember I bought a bellenciaga bag. It was like the first big bag purchase I made. It was a gift to myself after I had my second child literally I think it was 72 hours that bolanciaga got canceled. It has blown over for the most part and what they got canceled for was like pretty bad. It was on the scale of like scary that was pretty bad.

Shawn

Yeah time. Yeah yeah.

Sara

You know and I think for the most part people like the news cycle moves on people move on like life goes on and I think that unless you I mean we do live in this cancel culture. But like ultimately I think people are pretty forgiving as long as you kind of fess up to it and try to make a change.

Ethan

9

Shawn

Well yeah, and I mean it's like to your point of Blensiaga it's less cancel culture and more just like temporary consequence culture right? because like bill said they're still here and they're selling bags. There was nothing was canceled. They had like two bad weeks so like I have yet to see anyone actually get.

Sara

Um, me friday.

Shawn

Canceled because everybody comes back and and it all blows over so like it's more just like there's consequences for your actions sometimes and we now live in a world where more people are easily going to be able to say hey you messed up or you cross the line I wonder. I you know I know we don't have like a ton more time but I have like a couple of like quick questions. You know? Um, ah that I'd like to get your opinion on as far as um, ah navigating this current world as a brand. So what is your feeling on you know. do brands need to do brands need to um what's the word I'm looking for do brands need to sort of embrace the ah unnecessarily politicized. Um, ah you know. Changes of the modern world at all or are they better. You know does does Eminem have to diversify their eminems or could they not and just let people be a little mad and move on or is it better for brands to. Go hey this is where the general consensus of the world seems to be going and like there are women in the world and black people. So like let's just make one m and m sound black who cares like where from your perspective like if you're giving the advice on hey should we even do this would.

Shawn

Where would you fall.

Sara

I Think that you always again have to come back to brands. You know if it feels authentic for you as a brand then you should do it if it feels outside of your brand. You shouldn't do it like we have a client that you know.

Shawn

Um, and.

Sara

Went into a new community where there's a lot of programming that is probably not within their brand ethos. They felt like well I'm in this community now. Do I need to start doing these things but it doesn't feel right for my brand you know so it depends a lot on what you're trying to do.

Shawn

Right.

Sara

You know, are you trying to be a brand that is everything to everyone or are you trying to create something that's very steadfast in who they are um to me. Yeah to me I think that the latter is the way to go because I just feel we see it a lot right? You see it with.

Ethan

Yeah, look what? me.

Shawn

Um, that's really interesting.

Sara

And and my thing is like just from a you know again, an an exposure standpoint not exposing yourself. My feeling is that you do not need to get involved in every conversation that is happening on the internet If you're a fashion brand for kids you do not need to talk about.

Shawn

Yes.

Sara

You know abortion you you don't like it's it's maybe maybe that one's a close 1 but you get what I'm saying you don't have you're candy brand. You don't have to talk about politics like if it makes sense if it affects your industry and it feels authentic for you to be part of that conversation. Then I think you should if that is authentic to your brand.

Shawn

Right? right? No, but it's it's so right.

Ethan

Um, wrote it. But.

Sara

If you just feel like I'm going to tack on to this internet trend to gain some relevance in this conversation. That's when I think brands can get into hot water because their true following. That's been following them. You know up to that point is going to go why you doing this.

Shawn

M. Right.

Ethan

Yeah I think the classic example of the last year is probably Bud Light um Bud Light came out to support transgender rights which what we support transgender rights and should support transgender rights. But.

Sara

Yes.

Ethan

It didn't really seem to fit with their brand ethos and you had a bunch of people on the 1 side saying hey I drink bud light to like drink football like to go to tailgate drink football. What are you talking about and on the other side you had the transgender community being like we're being attacked and you're not sticking up for us and bud light kind of sat in the middle of like What do we do because they got into an issue that was important and took a ah positive stand on an issue but it probably wasn't consistent with their brand ethos didn't know what to do one way or the other and they've suffered huge massive. Um, the.

Sara

Yeah.

Shawn

Well, they could have just not done anything right right? and.

Sara

They they were not prepared for that and that was you know and what? what? What I would say to them is don't shit where you eat and what they did by advocating for that group was totally alienate. The loyal audience that they spent billions of dollars building over the last how many you know decades so that is a good example and I think Bud Light is hurting from it because they didn't even know how to how to react.

Shawn

Um, well and and there's a way to do it. There. There has to be there has to be a better way too right? So I like. Is sticking with the Bud light. It's like okay so someone at that company was like hey um, Trans people probably drink beer and also probably drink Bud light. So like we wouldn't like why don't We just show some support for them. I Wonder if the better move would have been to be like hey you know what. Like let's just start putting more Trans people in Commercials. We don't have to make a big deal out of it. Let's just cast Trans people and like that's it and it's just a normal but light commercial with Trans people and that says all it has to say but they went the opposite direction which is like look at us look at Us. We get this and we're part of your world now and like. Maybe that's the problem is is like you're saying and trying to tag up on it and like make it a thing you know instead of just doing it.

Sara

I Think and I think it's and I think the like dirtier word for that is virtue signaling right? like if it feels like that. Um then your brand audience is gonna pick up on that and and I think that that was just a stretch for them as a brand in in in general. Um, and.

Shawn

Next.

Sara

I agree there was probably a million other ways that they could have supported the trans community without going the route that they did that would have been way more acceptable to their audience as a whole and they wouldn't have felt this you know extreme backlash that they felt.

Shawn

Yes.

Shawn

Yes.

Ethan

Right? So like wrapping up all of this into like a couple bits Shawn is like don't be shit. You know be good treat people well but be authentic, be true to yourself because that's how you're going to connect with people whether you're an influencer a brand or a creative. Trying to go outside of your scope and please everybody will please nobody but be true to yourself. Be true to your band brand be nice, be respectful, um, be you and things are going to work out just fine.

Shawn

This was so much fun Sarah you have to come back because I still have a thousand more questions and I want to talk about so many more. It's got a lot of stuff to talk? No but I think that there are a lot of.

Sara

Um, he's like he's like I've left a lot of really negative comments and I need to go through that with you.

Ethan

Are.

Shawn

Um, real world examples to explore and I think it is fun to explore it with someone who deals with it and and it's probably extremely informative to you know brands and startups that are listening to hear this kind of exploration. So We definitely want you back?? um. Where can people find you or reach out to how can people ah get your help if they really need it.

Sara

Absolutely um, they can go to the market co is our website you can find us on Instagram um, you can look me up on Linkedin and we're we're pretty much everywhere. So um, thank you guys for having me. We'll definitely be happy to come back.

Shawn

Great and we'll also ah throw a link down in the description under the podcast. So if you're listening to it and you're like oh no, my company's in trouble. We got you just click on a link. And Ethan where can people find you and your law firm in case they want to I don't know Sue someone.

Ethan

Yeah, well well we we don't file lawsuits and you know this shame on you by now. But yeah, if you want to learn about the legal fallout of social media, legal news tips and resources for entrepreneurs creators and small businesses. Of course you can find us at the social media law firm. By searching online and of course subscribe to the social media law cast for more tips on legal resources about issues like these and so when we can invite Sarah back for season 3 so we can get into Shawn all of your dirty laundry.

Shawn

Thank you all right? This was fantastic. Thank you again. Sarah and thanks for listening. We'll see you guys next week bye.

Sara

Thank you guys.

Ethan

Thanks Sarah for now.