Podcast

Ethan

Welcome to the social media lawcast. I am your host social media attorney Ethan Wall and with me is my friend and co-host Shawn Shawn DePasquale. Question for you: Do you feel safe?

Shawn

What up what up Ethan yes, not now that you ask that question. No why? What do you know? what's going on. Is there someone behind me. Oh.

Ethan

Well a method nothing about you personally, but you've asked me a ton of questions recently about whether or not your data is safe.

Shawn

Oh No I do not feel my dad is safe I feel like I'm constantly being ah monitored and that at my every movement is shared. Ah, on on the internet with ah every site that I visit so that they can better advertise to me and that's terrifying and I want to know what I can do from a legal perspective to protect myself and despite asking you multiple times over and over and over again. My self-proclaimed Attorney. You keep saying oh no I got to talk to someone ah have you found us someone.

Ethan

Well I have and I'm sorry I haven't had the answers for you. But when you I brought these questions up time and time and time and time again I told you that I have the go to Attorney who's not just a friend but a leader in this field.

Shawn

Pass.

Ethan

I am so excited to introduce you to my friend and colleague Al Cyclley al is here the privacy. Yeah, what's up out. Um al is both the the chair.

Shawn

Yeah.

Al Saikali

Um, and again know I've already made this you know.

Ethan

Of the privacy and data security practice at shook hardy bacon in Miami 1 of the finest law firms. Not only in Miami but across the country and across the world. He's a leader as a lawyer in data incident response privacy litigation. Ah, and compliance and I don't joke about this because I told you this off the air a month ago when you said I want to talk data privacy I said I have the guy. Ah. Not only do I respect al so much as a friend and colleague but he truly is the number 1 attorney in my mind in my heart and in so many others when it comes to data privacy and so I'm so glad to have you on the show today al thanks for joining us.

Al Saikali

Um, thank you guys? Um, it's a pleasure to be here honored to be here and um, you know you you know I think think the world of you and this is a great great podcast. So happy to be part of it.

Shawn

Awesome! Um, well okay, al So let's start on the surface right? What? What exactly is data privacy and and why should people be concerned about about it and and and be aware of it.

Al Saikali

Yeah, so man, you could spend like a full hour just talking about like what is data privacy right? And there's so many different definitions I think what's key to data privacy is the ability for an individual to control their data There are some people. Like me I you know I I don't mind sharing a lot of my data in order to get more tailored to advertisements look I know I'm going to get the advertisements anyway. So if they're more tailored for things that I'm interested in great but there are many people probably most people that would say no.

Shawn

Um, ah.

Al Saikali

I Want the ability to limit What information is is collected about me and who it's shared with and at the very least I need to understand what happens when I provide you with my cell phone number with my name with my address with social security number. Whatever it may be.

Shawn

Um, yeah.

Al Saikali

Want to know what do you do with that who do you share it with how are you storing it? How do you use it? What ability will I have to say to you later on delete it I don't want you to have it anymore right? like those are all principles behind data privacy and I think they're important parts of the definition.

Shawn

Um, yes.

Shawn

Yeah,, go and and it's not just the name and address and my social and that right because what's also being collected is our interests and what we look at online and the things we buy and. You know if we go to a banking website. You know what kind of account. Do We have now a lot of times these companies will if you even bother to read the fine print which most people don't let's be honest, they will say things like yeah, exactly.

Ethan

But if I one of the only people in the world that I'm like oh actually love reading those things. But yes, so the exception for the rule.

Shawn

They will say things.

Shawn

Sure, Yeah, yeah, um, but but you know they will sometimes note ah you know, ah this this data will be anonymous right? So yes, we're gonna say someone came to our website to ask about Hemorrhoid Cream. We won't say it was you. But someone did but what they don't say is they might not say your name but they're getting so much else about you connected to that that it is not that hard to then if you had access to that data and a little bit Else. You could probably start to put together full profiles on people. That's where it gets scary and it sounds when you describe it like Scifi sci-fi right? like big brother. Oh they know everything about us you sound crazy. But it's not so okay so we know like basically what it is. We're trying to protect right? when we're saying Data. We're really saying like information about ourselves. That we're freely giving away. Um, so are there laws in place to protect us in general like do we have some laws already there that can help the individual or the or the business right from from keeping the the data safe. Um, and. And how can we use those laws to to to better protect ourselves.

Al Saikali

Sure. Yeah, so the answer is yes there are there are laws. But I think many would argue. There aren't enough laws at least in the United States and I think the best way to to describe. It is to kind of take a step back and look at the european system versus the us system right.

Shawn

Um, wrote.

Al Saikali

And even if you're not a european system. This will be interesting to you because it may be where the us is ultimately going so with the european system the general rule or principle. There is you cannot collect personal information about a person unless you you meet 1 of several like reasons. And unless you meet the reason you cannot you just can't collect the information in the first place here in the us the guiding principle is you can collect whatever you want you collect? Whatever you want about anyone as long as you tell them that you're collecting it and you know you comply with what you telling them about what you're you're doing with the data.

Shawn

Are.

Al Saikali

And and so it it you know it may be that the us moves more to the standard of the presumption of don't collect it right? like the default of don't collect it. But for now that's not the default. So okay, so what are the laws in the us then under this system that give people rights so you have a few different categories 1 are data to breach notification laws. And what that means is if your sensitive personal information is accessed by someone else. Maybe there's a cyber attack or you know the company that collected your data loses the data. Um, whatever it may be then they have to the company has to notify you within a certain period of time to say you're sensitive information. Was accessed by a third party here are the steps that we took maybe they will offer you credit monitoring or something as a result, a lot of people feel like that's not really sufficient like right like if you got one of those letters in the mail like okay so what do I do now right? like and you go ahead.

Shawn

Yeah, well so I I was a Sony employee prior to the Sony hack. So this literally has happened to me I did you know I was just like a low levelvel Sony employee I mean you know I just worked there and then like a couple years later I get this letter in the mail and in my email.

Al Saikali

Ah, you.

Shawn

All in the same day That's like bad news man your stuff's out there. Your social your name your phone number your email address your personal address. Everything is out there. We're really sorry here's some credit monitoring good luck and that was it I mean and to this day I'll still get every once in a while.

Al Saikali

Um, writes.

Al Saikali

Writes right? yeah.

Ethan

So.

Shawn

Hey your phone number is out there and I go like yeah I know and no one told me how to fix it or what to do or how to stop it I've just I just hope that my identity doesn't get stolen I guess and I monitor my credit closer you know So what do I do.

Al Saikali

Um, if you.

Ethan

Got it So we we get is yeah when we get these emails that's because the law requires these companies Once the data has been breached to go through certain steps and send out those different types of notifications.

Shawn

Right? But it's useless. So how do we fix that al.

Al Saikali

Um, right? right? and and and it's true I mean you know it it is. There's not much you can do about it and they've looked the reality is shown when you got that letter from Sony they're probably that information may have already been out there on the dark web from other breaches. Some of which the companies don't even know may have happened I mean again that doesn't make anyone feel any better. But I feel like we're all are now at a point where we're like you know what? I just assume that a lot of my information is just out there on the dark web I try to protect myself in terms of you know monitoring what's going on with new accounts that are being open and we can talk a little bit about that. But.

Shawn

Yes.

Shawn

1

Al Saikali

You know that's that's right, you know? and so we talked about breach notification laws as being one kind of law the other kind of law though in the us that we're seeing more and more of are these state laws that provide some requirements for what companies must do when they collect personal information. They must give. Consumers certain rights 1 right is a right to notice meaning you have to let people know I'm collecting this information about you and here's what I do with it and here's who I share it with and you know the second is you have to give them a right to control their data. So if al says I don't want you to have my stuff anymore then you have to delete it.

Shawn

Yes.

Al Saikali

And um, you know and another would be a right to to make sure that if that information is being with the shared being shared with a third party you have the ability to to pull it back. You know there's like right to be forgotten all of these like right to delete.

Shawn

Um, prevent.

Al Saikali

Different rights that can consumers now increasingly have and there are a couple of states California being one of them that are now giving a right to sue right? So if under the law called the California consumer privacy act if there is a data breach you know going back to that situation where there's a California resident whose information is impacted. Under the ccpa they have to get the notice that says your information was impacted. We are seeing a ton of lawsuits now against the companies that send out those notices under the ccpa which creates a private right of action that says if your information is impacted. And you know is it meaning it stolen by a third party or shared without authorization. You can sue for anywhere from $100 to seven hundred and fifty dollars per individual so there are a lot of class action lawsuits now that are getting filed against companies based on that lawsuit and it's it's creating a lot of litigation for sure.

Shawn

Okay.

Ethan

Yeah, let's run with that for a minute because let's say that I am just John or jane p consumer kind of listening to the program today I'm based in California I've had my data hacked and I'm harmed by it I'm going through the same exact stuff.

Al Saikali

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ethan

Shawn is talking about my data is everywhere. People are now opening up credit cards under my name I'm seeing my social media profiles running to be hacked all these different things and I want to do something about it. But. It's going to be really difficult for me to walk into a courthouse and file a lawsuit against the company because I don't have the time energy and money to do that. So how is that unfolding in actual reality today.

Al Saikali

Right? to the way it unfolds so you have your ah like your rose colored glasses way it unfolds and the way I think it actually unfolds the rose colored glasses is Jane Dos really upset and so she goes to a plaintiffs lawyer's office and says hey this happened to me and the plaintiff's lawyer says.

Shawn

And.

Al Saikali

That's really bad I'm going to file a class action lawsuit about it and so the class action lawsuit gets filed against the company and the lawsuit progresses that way the more realistic way it goes down is the plaintiffs lawyers have paralegals working in their office that are checking state ag offices every day like their website. And those websites list here are all the companies that have been breached recently that sent out notices is required by our state laws and so the parade will say there's a new one that just pop today. Let's prepare a complaint against them and at the same time. Let's launch social on social media. Advertisement saying have you been impacted by the xyzdata breach if so contact us it's it's kind of like a technological form of ambulance chasing in a way and then they find their client and then they run off to the courthouse and they follow the lawsuit.

Shawn

Her. Yeah.

Ethan

I see so when we see these ads have you been victimized has your data been lost by XYZ company have you been harmed by you know a weed killer product that's out there. It's because there are there's a law firm out there that is preparing or has filed.

Al Saikali

You wait.

Ethan

A class action lawsuit and they're looking for either named plaintiffs to put in the complaint itself who have the classic situation of being harmed as a representative sample of the class or they're trying to grow the actual class members so that they can establish a large volume of people who have been harmed.

Al Saikali

Leave.

Ethan

So that it it warrants a larger settlement for both the people who are part of the class who have been harmed and for the law firm itself that's going through the time energy and effort of seeking that relief for everybody.

Al Saikali

Hundred percent and and I won't get too far in the weeds on this but to your la to that last point Ethan the greater number of people that the plaintis lawyers can identify from their social media. The better position they're in when they go to the when they'd file the lawsuit.

Shawn

But.

Al Saikali

And the company responds. Ah you can't file a lawsuit here. We have an arbitration provision that says we don't do this in court you have to each file a separate arbitration then the plaintis lawyer says. Okay, we could do that but we've got 10000 people and each of them are going to file an arbitration, you got to pay the cost for all of that that's going to be way too much. So we're moving forward with the class action. So that's it's all kind of ah it it all sort of ties together in a way you know right.

Ethan

It's a little game in a way like there's There's a real harm right? There's people who are really harmed. There's a company that's really responsible, but there's arbitration provisions. There's logistical provisions and it sounds like it is a little bit of a a game of chess in a way. Um in order to.

Al Saikali

You.

Shawn

But and but but the the lawsuits are all well and good right? like that sure give me you know, whatever some money I guess for my data being stolen but it's not a real solution right? The real solution and you and you already brought this up a little bit. You know I'm a proponent of.

Ethan

Whistle.

Shawn

I like what europe has put into place I think there's far more protections there than there are here and I think it's a testament to um, probably the corporatization of America I think more than anything else, right? where. Our laws are much more lax and we're much more willing to give corporations stuff that clearly the european union is not. You know that it is not necessary. Um and and so I think the goal should be to get there because protecting people is more important than protecting companies. And and that should be like it that we need to protect people first and and and keep their data safe and let them and really it's it's about what you said al it's about control right? I just want to be able to control it I want to know when I go to a new website.

Ethan

Keep and I.

Shawn

Hey, here's all the stuff we're going to note about you here's where we're going to send it. Do you want us to do that or not and I'm even willing to pay a premium or what look at more ads or whatever I have to do to make it valuable to the company to not steal my data I'm willing to have that conversation as a consumer. I Think the lack of choice is the real problem so lawsuits are fine. But how do we move the needle forward on new laws on strengthening the laws. We have.

Al Saikali

Yeah, and you know I mentioned California and there are about 6 or 7 other states that have that. But what if you live in a state that doesn't have that to your point sea right? Like what protection is available to you there I mean every state has a dated breach notification law but only this handful have.

Shawn

Right? yeah.

Al Saikali

But what I call the privacy laws. The ones that require that give individuals control over their over their information and so at the congressional level us in congress There really hasn't been that much done. You know like I mean look not.. The reality is I mean I don't get into the politics of the situation but not a whole lot. Gets passed if if there are individuals on both sides that are just kind of intransigent and there's no compromise right? So yeah, like probably yeah yeah.

Shawn

All you you could have just stopped it not a whole lot gets passed and it would have been sufficient sufficient explanation for our current political situation. No matter what side of the aisle you're on.

Ethan

It worked.

Al Saikali

But the interesting thing is the interesting thing is this is an issue that kind of does have both people on the side of give people more rights right? because I know this is an over generalization. But the reality is like for the Democrats perspective they're thinking we want consumers to have the control over their information.

Shawn

Um, right.

Al Saikali

We don't like companies having that you know like like being able to do things with information in the dark so that seems like that should lock up the democratic support republicans especially the sort of a more pro populist you know group that has kind of developed over these last few years they are very and anti-technology but they. They are skeptical or cynical about these big technology firms. You know that have a lot of data about people and so they too seem to be ah in this group and we kind of saw this coming together here in Florida where we had a couple of iterations where the. The state legislature was considering privacy laws and first time around it didn't get done second time around didn't get done this last year. There was a law that was passed that applies to a small group of companies. But ah, you know it's been interesting to me because it seems a no brainer that there's enough political support there to make it happen. But it doesn't happen and so of course the cynic says well it doesn't happen because there are corporate interests. There are lobbyists involved. There are you know there are entities with a great amount of money that are preventing this from happening and that may be true but to go back to the point you made earlier Shawn about I like the european system there are some people that are like.

Shawn

Um, check.

Al Saikali

I don't know that I like the european system because the european system costs a lot of money for companies to comply with it and I get it. You may say why do I care that it's going to cost a lot of money but that results in like business is not doing business maybe in the eu and the same thing is happening with California or the cost of whatever they do goes up and I don't you know there's that.

Shawn

Ah.

Shawn

Um, right.

Al Saikali

Kind of cost-benefit analysis that comes into it as well. But you know I think to your initial point of okay, you've explained the status of everything but how do we take it to the next level in these different states and you know what is it that we need to do some of it is on the companies themselves and the the one progression I've seen over the last.

Ethan

Um, it ended.

Shawn

Ah.

Al Saikali

15 years or so that I've been in this area practice is that if you'd asked me fifteen years ago what are companies doing about data privacy in the us I couldn't told you it would have been very much right? Yeah, but now we are seeing a little bit of a better job being done by companies realizing there is a competitive advantage to being the company that offers more privacy. But at Apple right? How many times? do you see Apple commercials on television about your you know your privacy is of the utmost important to us here are things we do they are make they're turning it into a competitive advantage and I think more companies are starting to do that. Maybe it's not enough but it is a trend. Yeah.

Ethan

Yeah, and that makes sense and Shawn we had on 1 of our first episodes of season 2 the backlash against Zoom for implementing a new ai tool that was capturing people's data and that wasn't so much the issue the issue was they weren't clear about.

Shawn

Um, yeah, um.

Ethan

That in their privacy. Update: they're just like hey we updated our privacy policy and then there was this giant Pr backlash because it said hey we're going to start listening to your data if you turn on the Ai tool but they weren't clear about it. So I can see how it's being used as a competitive advantage and I think.

Shawn

Shown.

Ethan

You know, public opinion of companies does shift and change the more that there is transparency and I think ill really mention a great point which is that you know the european union know the Eu started with this big position of consumer privacy where the US started with data's open and so changing the.

Shawn

Um, yeah.

Shawn

From her.

Ethan

Whole entire business trend overnight with let's make it like the Eu is both difficult practically hard because all of these systems already been set up so we're probably going to see the the needle moving very slowly 1 state law at a time another one begins to follow California is probably. Was the model act in the us that mirrored what was happening in the eu more states are starting to adopt it and we're we're going to probably move there slower than we would like but I do kind of see that that's that's the trend now flipping this discussion up a little bit Al John's been focusing a ton on what can I do as a consumer. But I think what about in the position of companies and businesses. Nobody wants their data to get hacked nobody wants to have to send Shawn that letter or that email in the first place and usually companies have the best interest in mind of being like hey I created an app I want you to use it I want this to be a safe place but there are hackers out there.

Shawn

Right.

Shawn

Yeah.

Ethan

That have Ill gotten motivations to be able to do this and and that's where this is going Awry So now kind of flipping this around and turning ourselves to whether you're a big corporation or a startup business. What can you do.

Al Saikali

Um.

Ethan

To better protect your data comply with the law and create that safe place for consumers.

Al Saikali

Yeah I think there are are several things I think it starts with what we call privacy by design meaning when you're first rolling out your product or the the service. Whatever that service may be thinking about privacy as part of designing that service. So for example, you're rolling out a mobile application. Do you need to collect somebody's social security number. Do you even need to collect their name. You know thinking about in the first place did you need to collect that piece of information because if you never have it. It's not going to be subject to a cyber attack and I can't tell you how many data breach matters I've worked on are lawsuits we've defended where the the. Hacker got to information that was twenty thirty years old that the company ever really needed anymore. You know so one number 1 do you even need to have it and if you do need to have it then the second thing is thinking about encrypting the data so that if a third party got to it.

Ethan

Um, yes.

Al Saikali

They wouldn't actually be able to see what is in it right? they get scrambled in a way so that it's not readable to a third party you know in addition to that I mean having training every data breach has a human element to it. I don't care if it's a threat actor who breaks into your system or if it's an individual who sends an email to the wrong person that has a file with sensitive information attached to it. The threat actor got in because maybe it's a phishing attack right? Where al said got an email that looked legit. He clicked on a link and now created. And a door for the bad guy to get into the organization. So having that employee training to teach him here are the ways in which you know the the threat actors are getting access to sensitive information can help individuals realize okay in my in my job here are things I need to be thinking about to prevent this from happening.

Shawn

Right? but.

Ethan

Yeah, these fishing things have gotten incredibly sophisticated like ten years ago I was getting emailed by a saudi arabian prince telling me that I have a treasure in his castle but now on a daily basis I'm getting emails from.

Al Saikali

You know? Yeah, but.

Ethan

Microsoft 365 saying hey you need to log in to keep your account updated or I'm getting emails from what appears to be 1 of my employees or team members asking me to update their address in our payroll system and the email looks like it's coming from one of my employees and that they're getting more and more sophisticated more and more. Challenging to be able to deal with so I could see how training is gonna be important because actors are evolving.

Al Saikali

Yeah, and we we started to see a trend where companies were were trying to address a lot of this using something called multifactor authentication. Multifactor authentication is a fancy way of saying that. In order to log into something you have to do it in more than one ways like you can you can you can authenticate yourself with something you know an example would be like a password you can authenticate yourself with something that you are like a biometric face scan. Or you can authenticate yourself with something that you have and an example of that would be like your phone when you log in and then there's a text message or a notification that pops up. It says here's a pin use that in order to log in so companies started to use those and that was very helpful in mitigating a lot of these phishing attacks. But now what we start to see is. The bad guys do something called what's called Mfa Bombing Multifactor authentication bombing which means that you know al logs into his computer and you know he's in there and when he's in there for a while all of a sudden he starts to see the notifications that would be the multifactor notification saying here's your code. And or you know or you know did you did you try to access. Did you try to access and he knows initially he's like no this isn't me but eventually after the seventh or 8 time he's like sure. Yes, now with that last one because it's just happened so many times the individual gives in and says yes and now the bad guy is in the system because he had my credentials from.

Al Saikali

Some other data breach for. For example, so it's you know, whatever you do. There's always the bad guys come up with something else and then you got to come up with something and it keeps getting. It's like an arms race or whatever you know it's just and it of course it costs money right? It costs a lot of money for companies to to defend this sort of stuff.

Shawn

Share.

Shawn

Well and now we're seeing I know the rise of what do they call it like pass key adoption is becoming the new sort of advancement there which is and correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of it is. It's essentially um.

Al Saikali

Yeah.

Shawn

1 unifying identifier that gets you into places instead of having a password for Google and a password for this and a password for that the password for the other thing I'd have a Google password which would probably be tied to my fingerprint or my face like ah how I unlock my phone and then when I want to sign into Facebook. Just got to hold my phone up to my face and then Google tells Facebook yes, this is really him is that basically it? Yeah so so that's good I mean it sounds good right? like it. You know until they figure out how to steal our faces or our fingerprints and.

Al Saikali

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ethan

Um, the thought.

Ethan

Yeah, it sounds like a team of whack-a-mole in a way. It's like you know I I envision the hackers being Neo from the matrix right with all the different computer screens like figuring out new ways to do it and the moment that I from.

Shawn

And we're back to square one you know to your point.

Ethan

For me I use Mailchimp and to log in to mailchimp I now have to use the Google authenticator app but open up a second app to get a password that refreshes every 10 seconds and the hackers are now probably figuring a way to to figure that out and then it's going to be kind of something else. Um.

Shawn

Yep.

Al Saikali

Um, yeah, um.

Shawn

So what? other um, you know are there other things that that you know people talk about vpns as a way to protect some of your your information. What are some some other things that you you believe in as as good practice.

Al Saikali

Um, leader.

Shawn

Ah, for people to follow.

Al Saikali

So from like the the perspective of the consumer side or the perspective of the the companies and to the perspective consumers.

Shawn

Can let's do consumer first and then let's talk about what companies can do what what types of of technology there is for them.

Al Saikali

Yeah, so I think one of the first things is I think vpns are great if you're going to be logging in especially for work purposes I think definitely you want to try to use the vpn for that I think constantly changing your password. Um, at least every six months or so.

Shawn

Um, yeah.

Al Saikali

Because what happens is if you never change your password. The reality is you probably use the same password for everything So when there is that compromise with with 1 with 1 with one company. You know one account that now gives the threat actor a key to your data in many different potential kinds and accounts at least with respect to the most. Sensitive information like your financial accounts try to change that more regularly turn on multifactor authentication which we talked about um you know I don't This is kind of maybe it's kind of weird but I don't like to give my cell phone number out even when it's like you go to a valley like you want to park your car these days and they're like what's your cell phone number.

Shawn

Yes.

Al Saikali

Like I I want to give you my cell phone number because you know I know what happens with that like and that's not even ah, it's not a security thing. It's ah I know that you're using some application that collects my cell phone number that probably then shares my cell phone number with everyone else and it becomes part of a database and I'm going to get tagged with 50 Text message is a day saying you know click on this link or so-and so's running for congress. But but but you know like I mean it just it's all all the time right? So I think trying to limit that one of the things I've done. There is create a separate you you know cell phone number. There's different services. You can use whatever to have that and that's my junk number.

Shawn

Um, yeah.

Ethan

Catalog football. Yeah.

Al Saikali

Just I have a junk email address. You know like you.

Shawn

That's what I was just going to say I do thing with my I have a separate email address that I use to fill out almost any form unless I directly want the person to get in touch with me because yeah yeah.

Al Saikali

Um, right? right? right? Yeah, so you know and and Facebook sometimes there are like these games and puzzles that are there for the main purpose of trying to get you to interact and when you do reinact now. That the the creator of those games sometimes a nefarious you know bad guy now has access to your profile and your information so you know I think being kind of smart and limiting who you share your information with is a big is a big part of from the consumer side.

Ethan

Is' it funny that like that in the past having a different phone number like a burner account meant. Are you a drug dealer are you cheating on me in the relationship now. It's like no, it's just the best practice from ah data privacy perspectives. Oh.

Shawn

Um, and what about from oh sorry, go ahead.

Al Saikali

I right? Well I mean you know.

Shawn

Fair Hey why not both even so okay.

Ethan

That's why I've cut all these different numbers.

Al Saikali

Like going off on a tangent a little bit but 1 of the things I was doing at 1 point was giving my phone number and then just like changing the last digit and like that's horrible because whoever has that that that of phone number is now getting a ton of messages and spam because of me changing that last digit every time to a.

Shawn

Um, death.

Ethan

Um I think.

Al Saikali

4 whatever you know, just it's anyway. Yeah.

Shawn

My mother and grandmother's cell phone numbers were all 1 digit away from mine. So if anyone did that. That's exactly what would happen and like if someone changed my last the last number of my cell to another number.

Al Saikali

Um.

Shawn

My mom or my grandma would just get screwed so that doesn't work. So okay, so what about for.

Ethan

So I'm gonna send you not safe for work content I need to really be careful that I have keyed in your number correctly. Sorry Chag's Grand off.

Al Saikali

Um, this would be.

Al Saikali

Um, if we.

Shawn

Be precise. Please don't don't don't do an 8 Don't end with an 8 I'll tell you that um, so okay, so but what about companies because it's very very different for a company because we're you're not just talking about.

Al Saikali

Um.

Shawn

Outside actors breaching the company right? Which sure there's lots of protections. You can pile on there but companies are full of people people are idiots. They do dumb things they make mistakes as to your point right? There is no breach that doesn't have some kind of human element in it. So How does a company you know. Ah, protect itself and its people without also becoming again. Big brother right? Where like you can't do anything and you're stuck in this like very you know, ah secure air gapped internet that doesn't get out and you can't look up Information. What is the happy medium.

Al Saikali

Yeah I think you know one of the things that we tell new clients is you can hire these third party experts these days who just come in and do a deep dive on the security side of things and they don't have to be expensive. There are some really good consulting firms out there. We refer to smaller companies and the nice thing about it is they will do their assessment and give you a list of 40 things that you need to do which may be overwhelming but then they tear it and they say tier one. This is the stuff this is like hair on fire. You got to get to this now.

Shawn

Who.

Shawn

Right.

Al Saikali

And and then like tier two is these are things you need to be aiming for in the next year or 2 and then like tier 3 being okay, long term and you can also gives you better sense because you want to know what is the budget for doing all of this as a company so having an organized that way can be can be very helpful. Um.

Shawn

Okay.

Al Saikali

You know? but I mean I know we've talked about you know the training some of the technical you know having Mfa in place using you know, like vpns. Um I think you know just it's it's it's ah having someone responsible for security at a company that is not's not necessarily a given you know, maybe big companies.

Shawn

Really.

Al Saikali

That but smaller size companies. Don't have a seeso or you know like anyone like that it just it's.

Ethan

Like a gdpr data privacy officer or something which I remember when I was like assessing this and like we would work with banks and banks are primari in the Us but they have some Eu residents and now they need gdpr compliance and're like well who's your data privacy officer. They're like what are you talking about? So yeah, it's.

Al Saikali

Um.

Ethan

For for a company of 2 5 having someone designated to do that is is probably you know one out of a hundred companies. But I think even the bigger companies are still trying to learn that the world is changing that data privacy is changing and this needs to be a priority. It's like lawyers and e-discovery.

Shawn

Interesting.

Al Saikali

Life.

Ethan

You know ten fifteen years ago they were like it's only for the big apples of the world. But now we we realize it it is now the world's changing and that's needed and I think that's one of the things that companies need to be able to be thinking about from day one so that they don't get too big and have to redo all of their systems later. And then figure out how to implement data privacy practices when you've created an infrastructure that had none contemplated in the beginning and now it's going to be much more expensive I so much more difficult to deal with.

Shawn

It seems like the best advice I think I heard this whole time from ah a comp for for a corporation honestly was al's first bit of advice which is like if you don't need it. Don't take it like don't take it There's no reason to have it if you're trying to protect yourself. Go only take what you need and then be very very precious with it because it's it's a disaster so all right before we wrap up I want to talk a little bit about the future I don't want to get too bogged down into this because I don't you know I don't. I'm not sure how I feel about this topic but I know that.

Ethan

Meaning Shawn will have a rant at a fit if we go off on this too far.

Shawn

When we talk about the future of ah data privacy. Um, a big thing that continuously comes up in that conversation is blockchain right? that this is the future. The blockchain is the future but everyone's got to put their stuff on the blockchain. I Have a very rudimentary understanding but my but my general understanding of it is that this is some sort of ah shared way of of storing information right? which doesn't really make sense to me if I'm trying to keep my information private. Why would I want to spread it all over the blockchain where a bunch of people potentially are storing it that just feels worse Somehow how deep into that world have you got now and and and what are what are your thoughts there. Do you do or or are you like no I don't I have none I hate it.

Al Saikali

Um, it Yeah I mean I can tell you it hasn't really come up that much. Um and I don't know a lot of our clients. They're really thinking about using it from a security perspective right now it might be the next thing that arises I think you know from a.

Shawn

Sure.

Al Saikali

The perspective of what can consumers be doing in the future I do like the past key kind of concepts and I like the move to having information about you being stored on your device rather you know where rather than it being shared with a third party that then can do whatever it wants with it.

Shawn

Yeah.

Al Saikali

So for example, take Apple right? We we talk to them on but like with the biometric information. You know when you use face id or thumbprint or whatever id you want to use the information your template you know what you look like and the minutia points in your face that allow you. Allowing you to be authenticated. That's all stored in your device so that if if a third party if they were to have that information and they suffered ah a cyber attack or breach you know arguments are are being made that that that might be subject to unauthorized access and misuse. But when you have it on your own phone and it's never shared with a third party you feel like you have more control over it and we could see we could see that as a trend as well. You know I think in the future.

Shawn

That sounds like a great solution. Honestly I mean the idea of yeah if if an app or a company or whatever for whatever reason needs that information from me. Yes, better that it's all stored on my phone and then the the app when I sign in says hey. We'd like to look at this this and this is that cool and then I get to go? Yeah, cool, you know, check it out. You know or well you can see those 2 things but I don't want you to have a you know tracking my weight or or whatever it is. You know? um, that's.

Al Saikali

Right.

Ethan

Yeah, the real question is how many years away are we from being in the minority report where as soon as they walk into the mall. My eyeballs.

Al Saikali

Um, yeah.

Al Saikali

And.

Shawn

Precog you on precogs man we're talking we're talking pass Keys Ethan's already on precogs. So um, this was fantastic I am sure that listeners are.

Al Saikali

Here.

Al Saikali

Um, and.

Shawn

Ah, feeling a little better about what protections they do have but also maybe filled with questions. So um, if someone's got a real claim or or real thing that they they need. Ah, to reach out to a lawyer for where can they find your firm al and and where can people reach out.

Al Saikali

Yeah, sure so they can learn more about me and my firm just by googling shahar and bacon I'm located the firm's Miami office. We do our clients are our companies and you know we do defend companies and represent them and advise them. To help him get into compliance with some of these laws that we talked about but I mean it's yeah I mean if it if anybody feel free to to reach out. You know if you have any questions or um, want to discuss any of this further because it's they're really interesting issues I think.

Shawn

Cool.

Shawn

Yeah, yeah, and better mentioned.

Ethan

Yeah I think for the business owners that are out there knowing look if your dad has been breached picking up the phone and calling al is is the first call that you should make but I think for most of you who are listening out there being proactive rather than reactive is going to be even better.

Shawn

Um, yes, yes.

Ethan

And so yeah I'll I'll and and the folks at Shook Hardy and bacon are are really going to be primed to be the ones to go to before There is a problem and then in that event. They're definitely the ones to call.

Shawn

And Ethan what about you? The social media law firm this podcast do all of the things.

Ethan

Yeah, if you're like hey Ethan I wanted to contact al but I forgot the name of his law firm and you want to reach out to us First of course you could search for us by looking for the social media law firm across any of the social media platforms. You want to follow my. Vagabond travels while also getting legal updates you can check in on Linkedin by searching for Ethan Wall and of course if you want to get more legal tips news and amazing, incredible and just the the best guess in the business like my great friend al of course you could follow us right here.

Shawn

Yes, and as always I am ah a mist in the night completely unfinable anywhere on social media. You'll never get any information out of me unless of course you were part of that Sony hack in which case you know everything about me um al this was fantastic. Thank you so much for doing this.

Ethan

On the social media lawcast.

Shawn

And ah sitting there and while I raj you with ah very silly examples and questions of things. Thank you so much for doing this really appreciate it. Awesome! Awesome Ethan I'll see you next week for another exciting episode of whatever it is. We do here.

Al Saikali

No, it was great. Thank you for giving me the opportunity Good talking to you guys.

Ethan

Thanks Out. You got it brother see that.

Shawn

All right Bye buddy.